Many atheists whilst being non-believers are still willing to admit they think there is plenty of evidence to show Jesus was real – even if he was just a wise man, preacher or philosopher of the time. The Pagan Christ is an interesting look at the facts and evidence supporting the existence of Jesus of Nazareth and try to justify their claims.
What if Jesus didn’t exist?
Comments
(38 Responses)
"
It’s xmas as well – I’m such a killjoy!
I believe the man existed and maybe he was spoken to by a higher being but that is all.
I refuse to pour any adoration on a man i have never seen or met.
I have my own list of rules to my life too.
I live as well and kind as possible.
Merry Crimbo Phylis
xXx
Forgive my spelling!!!
Merry Crimbo Philis
xXx
What’s Jeff Bridges doing reprising his role in “The Big Lebowski” while nailed to a cross?!?
Re. ruining xmas, Lori Petty in her book “Hidden Knowledge” reveals that the Christmas Tree is one of many xmas traditions that have zip all to do with Jesus. It’s a throwback from the Norse tradition of Yule where the entire celebration consisted of villagers keeping a giant log burning for 3 days.
This predates Christmas as we know it, and it’s also a heck of a lot cheaper than buying all those presents and consuming enough leftovers to feed a third world village for a month. Christmas was put on December 25th by the Christian founding fathers to deliberately eclipse the pagan Winter Solstice Festival. The Vikings were smarter though, as they still had money left for the January sales
So next time an evangelist tells you you’ve forgotten the true meaning of Christmas, you can say “Oh you mean burning a giant log?”!
Bah Humbug!
BTW Merry Xmas Phillis!
If there wasn’t a Jesus, you’d have to invent him.
I don’t believe in the bible the way many people do believe in it. A book with stories, based on character which are partially taken from real life but seen from a certain perspective and with a certain goal, and character are pimped here and there for an obvious reason. But that’s my vision. Everyone is entitled to have her/his belief as long as they don’t think others need to be the same.
Also, I’ve heard some modern young moslims say that they look upon their religion more as sort of a culture, a spiritutal way of living. And when they speak about it, it is not from their serious brain, rational brain. It can give trouble .. combining it with their modern way of thinking and life for sure. As you can not really combine it in a normal way, you will have to denie half of yourself quite often.
[...] unknown wrote an interesting post today onDerren Brown Blog » Blog Archive ; What if Jesus didnt exists a quick excerpt Re. ruining xmas, Lori Petty in her book “Hidden Knowledge” reveals that the Christmas Tree is one of many xmas traditions that have zip all to do with Jesus. It’s a throwback from the Norse tradition of Yule.
This is very sad in a blog from Derren Brown. This is the same as telling people to believe in psychic stuff. Its like running around and telling people about ancient chinese medicine and how good it works. Better than our stuff. The historical Jesus debate is long over! Still claiming he didn’t exist is just plain stupid and unscientific. Thinking about religion and investigating doesn’t include spreading nonsene. I thought you people are intelligent investigators. But spreading this nonesense is really really dumb.
Derren this is sad!
Religion is Sad. Politics is Sad.
It’s based on psychological exploitation and the results are domination and subjugation.
What’s it going to take for the human race to be truly free?
David: Uhm, this was posted by Phillis, not by Derren, so you’re addressing the wrong person. Also, the documentary has some interesting points, even though it goes against the accepted scholarly view of Jesus. I don’t really think that Phillis posting it means that he necessarily agrees with it, or wants us to – it’s just something to watch and ponder, like a lot of the things he posts.
Jesus is referred to by Josephus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus#Testimonium_Flavianum
in a work about 60 years after the supposed death of Jesus.
If there hadn’t existed Jesus, there would have been other saviours and leaders. It seems to be in the human nature to need them.
Big Family Christmas » Blog Archive » Derren Brown Blog » Blog Archive » What if Jesus didn’t exist? -
Wow, that’s a really long moniker!
Actually what I said is mostly correct so far as I know but in the interests of accuracy I feel I should say I got the wrong Lori!
The author of the book in question is Lori Reed wheras relying on my fragged memory first thing today threw up Lori Petty, a B-list Hollywood actress best known for roles in ‘Point Break’ and ‘Tank Girl’! Regretably I can’t edit my posts.
It’s that kind of mixup that leads to humiliation when people check out your sources. Never post before the brain starts working!
The question is asked by the documentary, what if he didn’t exist. No one is making any firm statements here – they are (in a traditional scientific tradition) analyzing the proof because it seems as though the evidence doesn’t hold up. If the documentary is wrong then we could label this as filthy Atheist Propaganda (oh yeah!!!)
It seems as though most of the evidence we have for Jesus comes from one person known as Josephus who’s reliability is not all that great. I would gladly welcome to the debate other proof (please give citations) that debunks this theory. I have attempted a little research in to this area and found what is said here to not be particularly unfair. If anything the end of the documentary seems to skew wildly off subject and leave me with a bozz-eyed face slapping expression.
I’m open to debate as are others – please prove me wrong so that I may learn, and please – try not give in to the temptation of nay-saying.
David: “Still claiming he didn’t exist is just plain stupid and unscientific”. WHY? wheres your evidence mate? if the “debate is long over” then show us where. You are the one who is sad. Are we all supposed to just believe the word of the great David simply because you say so. You have just contradicted yourself and made yourself look silly.
Thank you for your reply. I think no serious question is asked by this little .. movie. Its just popular to say that somethings wrong with the christian origin and thats what they do.
and Sueton.
It was often tried to show Jesus was just dreamd up by the apostles or a mythical figure (e.g. by Hermann Samuel Reimarus, Ferdinand Christian Baur, Friedrich Strauss, Bruno Baur) in the 18th and 19th century. Later by John Mackinnon Robertson, William Benjamin Smith, Arthur Drews. Smith recognized Jesus as Mithras and Peter Jensen as the the Hero in the epic of Gilgamesh.
From Josephus Flavius we have statements that clearly show that he knew about Jesus. But other statements by him are unreliable.
Proper non-christian sources are e.g. Tacitus, Pliny the Younger (I hope he is called Pliny in engish
Most of this information is also in a german book (i’m from austria) called “Kleine Kirchengeschichte” (Short history of Church) by August Franzen.
I think it’s interesting to discuss the evidence for the existence of a person called Jesus around at that time, from an historical point of view (and I don’t find it unlikely that someone with that name was around, but it also seems likely that many other stories from other sources have been incorporated into the mix) – for me it’s not important from a religious point of view because the evidence for his existence says nothing whatever about the claims of his divinity.
Isn’t that one of the main points of the documentary?
That Josephus is an unreliable source. Very recent evidence has even shown (it was a national geographic documentary) that the birthplace of J in Bethlehem is also unlikely as archeological evidence proves the site to be less than 1700 years old.
Also australian astronomers have used computer simulations to show that xmas should be held in July (as this would be consistent with the alignment of the stars) but instead it’s clearly been hijacked by the Christian church from a traditional pagan ceremony. At best we have very few unreliable sources and I for one need to see some more consistent evidence before I am convinced.
I think the evidence for a December 25th date for Christmas being hijacked from previous pagan cults is pretty well established, I just choose the one source that came to hand from my own bookshelf. There are plenty of other texts to cooberate that.
Mind you Jesus not actually existing is a relatively new one on me, though there are people who say parts of his mythology have been copied and pasted wholesale from Apollo in ancient Greece to what this video talks about. I’m interested to see just what evidence there is, on both sides.
Some time ago someone explained to me that church communion was another trend borrowed from certain cannibalistic pagan cults. It was designed to sweeten the pill when the Christian missionaries first came over and tried to convert the pagan masses, so they came up with the dodgy conjuring trick of “transsubstantiation”, to get people already practicing blood rites on side by telling them they could still eat bits of Jesus.
When these things were first brought to my attention it made the transition from Christian to atheist that much more of a no-brainer.
I asked a well schooled friend of mine on the subject today. He studied Jewish religious history for 8 years and said the following.
“The evidence for Jesus is there, it’s not a massive amount but given the times it is fair enough to say there are reliable texts that cross reference to give heavy weight to his existence. The reason these texts are often not used by religious scholars is that many of them contain negative reports of Christianity and are often quite acerbic. The debate that he was or wasn’t able to perform miracles goes back hundreds of years, but the idea that he didn’t exist at all is a very new theory and seems to be growing in popularity.”
So the question is – “is this video atheistic propaganda?”
I live in the US in a city that is the HQ for a christian based religion, and a lot of people pour their entire soul and energy into this stuff.
Personally I dont. I would need to be 10,000% sure before I am going to go and claim belief in a creator, much less a structured religious bureacracy designed by people to facilitiate my worship of said creator(i.e., a church). I mean after all this is my so called everlasting soul on the line here isnt it? Wouldnt I want to be absolutly sure before i go and put that on the line?
Seems like none of these churches has it right, most of them just seem to want to tell me what to do and how to vote and where to spend my money( on them). Maybe there isnt anything to get right in the first place.
phillis: So the question is – “is this video atheistic propaganda?”
Well I think it’s not. Like The Da Vinci Code is not schismatic propaganda. Its just pop. People like it. Like alternative medicine and homeopathy. It sells. And they don’t ask questions about it.
It fits into this ever growing mess of New Age nonsense.
Thats just what I think.
Phillis: I don’t think that the existence of a historical Jesus is at odds with the atheist/agnostic idea that Jesus wasn’t a divine being, so I don’t think atheism needs ‘propaganda’ to that effect. I’m agnostic myself, and while I find the theories explained in the first bit of the documentary (haven’t watched the whole thing yet) quite interesting, I think the idea of a historical Jesus has a lot going for it, too. After all, when a new cult splits off from an established religion, it usually has a founder. And if people are prosecuted for membership of said cult, it makes sense for them to ascribe supernatural powers to that founder, if only to legitimize to themselves their reasons for following him.
Flapjack: Yeah, Christmas is a pretty obvious Christian variety of the Germanic festival of Yule, just as Easter is quite obviously Ostara (a fertility festival, hence the bunnies and eggs).
I don’t think blood rites were ever anything taken as lightly as the communion ritual, though. Human life was a valuable resource in those days – I can’t imagine people regularly sacrificing it. Of course, in times of need, when the gods needed great gifts to appease them, it would be the ultimate sacrifice (see Abraham and Isaac), but that doesn’t seem anything like the communion ritual to me.
Berber Anna- My sources indicate that the Easter festival you’re refering to was the festival of ‘Eostre’ the Anglo-Saxon goddess of Spring, the goddess of fertility who possessed the power of new life. Her sacred animal was a hare… which became our Easter bunny as you rightly said, and death and rebirth is significantly part of Eostre’s remit. All this makes the ressurection look like a bit of a cut-and-paste job too.
I strongly recommend Lori Reed’s “Hidden Knowledge” to anyone interested to know where our annual rituals really come from. It’s not a big book, but it’s packed with interesting nuggets like that.
There is a difference between a historical narrative and a believe system, but I’m more inclined to believe that some of the people and the places are true. Much of the passages from the bible are derived from Greek Mythology such as Gilgamesh and other sources. The thing to remember is the Bible was written 100 years after the events had meant to of taken place. The more we learn about archaeology and history in biblical times, the more it supports evidence of the bible being fiction. Religion is an article of faith not of science. Therefore you can not provide support of a circle believe system.
On the other hand, we are debating whether or not, Jesus had indeed existed? Or perhaps the most important question is – whether or not he was the son of God? Did he or did he not provide miracles?
There is no credible historical proof to suggest he did, but the possibility of him existing! Well, there is no evidence that supports Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus, but there is a mention of Christians during the reign of Tiberius which suggests a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century. And there is of course the story of Mithras. A story that mirrors that of Jesus’ life during the reign of the emperor Nero. To surmise, I think during the first century there was a ‘following’ or cult of men which introduced a new way of life – but was exaggerated over the years into a fictional narrative called ‘The Bible’. A best seller for Gutenberg!
Oh…Before I forgot, Merry Christmas!
And I hope all you bloggers a jolly joyful new year!
If anyone would like a bit of festive reading I suggest ‘The Star of Bethlehem Mystery’ [ISBN: 978-0-4600-4343-4]. Written by Dr David Hughes (my former Astronomy tutor at uni) it looks at the astronomical events that may have given rise to the story of the Star of Bethlehem.
Flapjack: I thought Ostara (the festival’s name as used by neo-pagans, according to my Wiccan acquaintances) was a variant form of Eostre? Might be wrong there, though.
Sara: Happy holidays to you (and everyone else) too!
Thank you, Berber Anna.
Also I just re-read my comments on 24. My apologies that’s Circular Belief System not circle believe system. What can I say, I’m an idiot!
The Romans were the best record keepers of all time. They recorded everything. yet, there is nothing about Jesus’ existence until 700 years after he “lived”. Plus, in the bible it explains how if you pray for Jesus he will come to you. Yet, obviously he doesn’t. The bible was written by men of a time where slave labor was awesome and murder was a petty crime. The bible has been translated 1,000′s of times, it could’ve been a cookbook. There are passages in the bible that say all men who work on the sabbath day (sunday) should be killed, as is God’s will. Does that make any sense? Not really. Even prayer is just coincidence. This whole subject just pisses me off, how people are so stupid i will never know.
nice video though…
Hello Matt, I really think you will enjoy this link below:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8RV46fsmx6E
From Penn and Teller’s Bullshit Bible.
Take it as my Christmas present for you! Enjoy…
“The Romans were the best record keepers of all time. They recorded everything. yet, there is nothing about Jesus’ existence until 700 years after he “lived”.”
Again: thats wrong. Its even on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ
Stop spreading bullshit.
Matt: Debating whether Jesus is based on a historical figure isn’t the same as debating whether the bible is literal truth. I think it’s likely that the biblical character Jesus was based on a historical Jesus (as I said above, most cults are started around a charismatic leader).
I do not think that everything the bible says about the guy is true. In my opinion, the bible is a collection of mythological tales and philosophical essays. It’s just that most myths are somehow based on actual events – retold, embellished endlessly, but with a historical origin. Thinking there probably was a guy that started the whole Christianity thing doesn’t equal believing he is/was a divine being.
“Again: thats wrong. Its even on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ ”
… and we all know that Wikipedia is a very reliable resource…
Should you feel threatened by this feel free to travel here and avail yourself of sleeptime defence. All the best for Crimbo.
http://www.armorofgodpjs.com/
It is a foolish suggestion to suggest that Jesus Christ never existed.
These gospels are evidence of his exitence. Of course there are small parts of unexactness in them. They were taken from different perspectives. It is the same to question the existance of other major historical, yet many you do not.
I know Derren often discards religion saying that it is just something that is nice to believe. But rather, this religion is controling and quite counter greeds and wants of people, whilst at the same time carries the strongest conscience. Many people say atheism is very liberating. IT feels good to believe.
There is no orther reason to deny it.
If one is an atheist, and beleives that when one dies, nothing more shall happen to them, then what harm do they see in believing other ideas?
Christianity is not based on wants, it is based on both evidence and truth of something Great.
Why do you question his existence?
-Ben
There are also many natives in that land who tell their ancisters christianity agreeing stories.
-Ben