I guess it’s worth tolerating(ignoring?) that despise of other people so that one can freely “shine”. In time the others will also realize what they’ve really been doing and try to take a similar path, if things don’t go too wrong. I can see it working…

I have to admit that because of that behavior, I always learned that second place is always preferable or even when I did something good blaming it on luck in the hope that I could avoid that behavior (which usually works). But I read something once, and it truly touched me and from that moment I thought “fuck it” because by doing that I give into that madness and that doesn’t help myself nor them in the long run.

“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. Your playing small does not serve the world.
There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won’t feel insecure around you. We were all meant to shine, as children do. It’s not just in some of us, it’s in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.”

Further I also like it better when I meet someone who I can learn something from. Then again I am someone who rather looks stupid for a minute by asking questions than remaining stupid all my life.

I think the difference in group is when you come into a group full of individuals and loners, because then they all are suspicious of groups and they are so busy respecting the other for who (s)he is as long as the others do the same. I like those groups:) It is funny if someone joins who truly is a groupperson, but it seems that even such behavior can be past on (that is why I said that it is not only bad things that one can learn from others:)

Although I of course can’t assess if this is something constant, because I still rather meet with people one-on-one or in really small groups (max of 4 persons)

So she put you down and then you asked why she did that and she was able to honestly explain her behavior? That’s interesting… Her perspective is also interesting, but to be honest it sounds ridiculous to me; destructive and counter-productive. I guess it’s the result of insecurities people have about themselves, or some form of laziness.

When I come across people who are better than me in something that I care about, then I just try to learn from them instead of trying to make those people disappear. I think it’s a more fruitful approach for common progress. Even if I were to always remain the weakest, it would still benefit me more than it otherwise would have, probably. But all this is pretty much subjective I guess; depends on a person’s priorities in life. I personally wouldn’t sacrifice human progress for money or women or whatever, and I think I got good enough reasons for “sacrificing” that kind of sacrifice.

>”I always thought groups are quite constricting, but strangly enough, I have been in groups that I was afraid that would be the result and noticed that it was strangly not the case.”

Why do you think that is? Were the group members behaving differently than how you imagined they would or was their behavior having different results than what you expected? Or why?

So I think it is another way of viewing things.

But indeed I always thought groups are quite constricting, but strangly enough, I have been in groups that I was afraid that would be the result and noticed that it was strangly not the case.

Indeed labelling when it is not the case (although it usually has a self-fulfilling prophecy aspect to it, I noticed) is quite sad. I once tutored someone in maths, because she would like to continu her studies. Her secondary school was in sales, which is in belgium a very low degree. Surprisingly she was brilliant (even better than my classmates were when I tried to explain the same things and they were in a mathematical direction(?) ). I say surprisingly because she never saw any real maths except adding and substracting (what you need for sales). But she understood everything so quickly, she was really talented in maths. Then one day she came to my home with tears in her eyes, saying that she will stop the tutoring, because her parents said she was stupid and that college was ridiculous for someone like her and that she must go working, because she was ‘just a girl’ what was she thinking. I became so mad… but my hands were tight, the sad part was that she believed it, so I could not change her mind on the subject… the next time I encountered her (six months later) she even acted like an empty stupid girl…. it was so sad to see… parents can even be the cruelest (and that is something I see in my practice too) and usually have the largest effect.

What is real in ones mind, will become real in their consequences.

That’s just an impression I got through my own experience, can’t guarantee it’s tangibility or a significant frequency of behavior like this within the population.

But anyway, yes, I agree, well said…

A maybe trivial example (and this one of many similar examples): I once met someone who by the description of others was a liar and a thief. These were not just gossips, apparently he in fact almost always lied and stole a lot in the past. He was because of this reputation treated accordingly. I on the other hand choose to treat him as equal and as if the past never happened (and as such gave him the oppurtinity to cast of that label and start anew or identify him with something else). I remember that we walked together to my home while talking (I only met him two or three times) and it was late at night, and I noticed that he was cold. So I ask if he wanted to borrow my coat. He looked totally puzzled and said something like “What? You trust me with that?” and I just smiled and said “I am certain that I can trust you to bring this coat back. So take the coat, because it is too cold”. He did bring back the coat, and there are so many examples. Some people changed completely, and he is now one of my best friends and I know he is someone I can always count on in times of need and vice versa.

The problem is that people don’t notice in what way they need to be able to identify with something, to be someone. The sad part is when those identifyers are with so negative symbols.

I could go on for sometime, so I better stop:)

I hope too that I can still change something in the world. I am already doing it ‘in small’ but I would like to reach more people… I am thinking about maybe starting an organization that might have the possibility to grow and reach other countries too.. Still in the development stage though. (Depending how old I will become, I am also not in my midlifecrisis, but it feels the same:) I like the thought that we both will achieve extraordinary things:) see how much a thought can change you:) )

Totally agree. I’ve seen a few examples like that from people who’re told that they have ADHD. That one seems to be a pretty useless/meaningless label to me, most of the time even if not in all cases.

But this isn’t only about psychiatry actually. Even with more ‘physical’ diagnoses. I think the medical establishment is generally too sure too often. Many misdiagnoses are noticed mainly by luck and not because the doc wasn’t certain that he diagnosed correctly and decided to re-check. Plus, this whole ‘label becoming reality’ thing becomes even more important with things like Cancer, HIV/AIDS and scary stuff like that. A strong nocebo effect can easily turn a healthy misdiagnosed person into someone who seems to have a deadly sickness, or at least live like (s)he does which is terrible enough. Here are a few striking examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm6W369qmnw

And there are many more astonishing stories available online when it comes to HIV/AIDS, it’s a unique label in many ways.

>”…People usually say “you are crazy” or “you are abnormal” to me, and in fact I rarely follow the norm, so for most people I am crazy…”

Heh, I can relate to that… I hope we both will achieve extraordinary things and change the world then. And I’m pretty sure that this has nothing to do with a midlife crisis, not in my case at least. I don’t think I even lived a quarter yet.

To go further on mental disorders. I think that it is indeed not good to work with ‘labeling’. (and indeed the things they start to label???)

I mean, I don’t believe that you help your patient with labelling. Ok the patient asks constantly ‘what do I have? What is my illness?’ and so on. And indeed, if you say “you have A” they feel relieved because what they have and feel has a name. But I think that there are more chances that by giving the name that you are blocking your patient. Because in such (s)he can identify with the label and become even more ‘the label’ than before and then it becomes more difficult to move on.
What I have also seen often is that from that moment on they use their label as a way to shift all responsibility. “I can’t help myself, I am not responsible, I have A”. You see this a lot with “Borderline patients” where the message is given that they can never change and truly that is bullshit. If you give the label and say they can never change and they truly believe it ok then it will become true in its consequences.

So to conclude, I never got the whole labelling thing. I think people are ‘easier’ helped if you leave that aside and help the patient face whatever they want to face or change.

When I tried to teach this, I heard students often say “but if the patient asks a name, you must give that, or (s)he will go away” while I often answer “you can say where the problems seem to be centered and if that is also the goal of the patient that we will work on that together and that I don’t see where a name can give any assistance rather than that you motivate the patient to look it up and pass it on to friends and relatives and as such identifies with A or being “a nutter” (depending what A is)”

And I think that
“Sometimes people just need to be mentally different in order to adapt to the unique conditions in their own lives and also to achieve extraordinary things maybe.”
this is also true, but usually with more positive labels. More the “you are not strange, you are special” explanation. So in other words that people say “you are crazy”, without truly labelling an illness, more saying ‘you don’t follow the norm’. So that by thinking different, you have a chance to change things, because you see other possibilities.

People usually say “you are crazy” or “you are abnormal” to me, and in fact I rarely follow the norm, so for most people I am crazy. So I hope in your reasoning I can achieve extraordinary things, because I truly want to change the world, but like I already said, maybe I am just having a midlifecrisis:-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXEIYpnlxbw

That video was also a part of the second episode of Century of the Self, I think you’ll like the whole series.

“…one switches into the ‘university’ discours/position, where one no longer IS a master, but refers to a master (for example, “it is not I that thinks that way, but Lacan wrote it that way”), which is a safer way of conversing because your own person is no longer at stake…”

And that’s what Milgram’s Agency/agentic shift/agentic state Theory was all about as far as I know.