The Vatican has admitted that Charles Darwin was on the right track when he claimed that Man descended from apes.
A leading official declared yesterday that Darwin’s theory of evolution was compatible with Christian faith, and could even be traced to St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas. “In fact, what we mean by evolution is the world as created by God,” said Archbishop Gianfranco Ravasi, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture. The Vatican also dealt the final blow to speculation that Pope Benedict XVI might be prepared to endorse the theory of Intelligent Design, whose advocates credit a “higher power” for the complexities of life.
Organisers of a papal-backed conference next month marking the 150th anniversary of Darwin’s On the Origin of Species said that at first it had even been proposed to ban Intelligent Design from the event, as “poor theology and poor science”. Intelligent Design would be discussed at the fringes of the conference at the Pontifical Gregorian University, but merely as a “cultural phenomenon”, rather than a scientific or theological issue, organisers said.
The conference is seen as a landmark in relations between faith and science. Three years ago advocates of Intelligent Design seized on the Pope’s reference to an “intelligent project” as proof that he favoured their views.
This is weird, but I very nearly posted this link an hour ago as well. Only it came from the Telegraph!
Will you please STOP READING MY MIND!!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4588289/The-Vatican-claims-Darwins-theory-of-evolution-is-compatible-with-Christianity.html
Newborns listening to the Vatican with blind amazement, looking at their signs “the world only exist for 10 000 years” “it started with adam and eve, no f***g monkeys”, trowing away the signs with a deep sigh, and starting anew. Murmeling “it is always the same, first the earth was flat, then it was not; then the sun turned around the earth then it was not, make up your mind, djezes. I mean ‘kind lord’ ”
It stays sweet:)
As ever the Vatican exists in another time zone. It was about 90 years behind equal rights for women, and now it’s 150 years late to accept evolution as fact. I’m surprised the Popemobile isn’t steampowered!
Who gives a flying toss about what the vatican endorses…yet another trick for the gulible…..dont get me wrong i like magic alot but somehow i begin to suspect that el popo secretly loves magic and abuses NLP and the such….did you see how they mention this in 1 breath ““poor theology and poor science”´´… some trickery!, rofl…
This new pope apparently has got some new fresh influence in the vatican already …. hahaha …
You guys are all so cynical. I think it’s great news! Maybe in another hundred years or so they’ll endorse birth control and those books by Philip Pullman! I feel all giddy just thinking about the possibilities the future holds, don’t you?
Verrrry exciting….in the coming years we will be seeing the whole vatican staff wearing stormtrooper suits (openly), yay!
In the spirit of Vatican Appreciation and under th assumption Marie is right, I’m also going to abuse NLP by yelling at the first NLP practitioner I find. Tricky little buggers, always mumbling things about positive thinking, worse than Mormons.
Wasn’t it also relatively recently that the Vatican apologised for being mean to Galileo for all the astronomy stuff? Why do they never do this while the people they are sorry about are alive? They’re almost as slow as the local postal service, seriously.
Ah, what’s Intelligent Design and why don’t ‘we’ like it?
Muad’Dib: Actually the ancient Indians (because they were fantastic and created the concept of ‘nothing’ as an numeral) we able to calculate fantastic astronomical stuff, like the fact that Earth orbited the sun or the diameter of the globe (and they were only a tiny bit off). They were 2000 years ahead of Europe. It happens. And it is SO super frustrating.
ScreamingGreenConure: The Vatican was not wrong in denigrating Galileo, perhaps in jailing him (or not, he was a bit of a rebel) but all the scientific evidence corresponding to that time period did not support Galileo’s theories, at all. He assumptions, I believe, aren’t even considered strictly ‘correct’ today, (i.e. way in which he derived them is fundamentally wrong, he just happened to get the right answer (this may be a lie, I can’t remember exactly). Galileo and his small group of supporters were seen as nutters and to support them was to renounce Aristolean theory without any evidence to do so. Galileo didn’t live to see his theories being accepted, hence no apology because he was obviously just one of the vast array of insane little creatures with something ‘scientific’ to purport.
They were wrong for harassing him. Putting people on trial for having fringe theories is terrible. Being wrong isn’t a crime and it’s a good thing we’ve changed somewhat sice then.
I’ve very little doubt that not everything Galileo said is considered correct today – we have capabilities he did not, when it comes to measurements and observation.
ID is a watered-down foot-in-the-door version of Creationism, which is probably why a lot of people dislike it.
@Emily
What I find cute about the church is that they are a bit stuck in their reasoning. Seeing the pope cannot be wrong (I thought it was because he communicated with God directly, and that because God is never wrong, by proxy he can never be wrong) so if a pope says that for example the sun orbits the earth, or the earth is flat, or whatever, it usually takes a very long time before they find a way to set in right. I don’t remember how long, but I think it took a few 100 years before they even set right that the earth orbits the sun and not vice versa (although it was then already common knowledge and proven many times).
So I was rather laughing with that fact and that for the blind followers it must not be easy either:) (not that I care that much, I just think it is cute (and yes I have a totally different definition for the word ‘cute’:)
And it’s Darwin day today. Nice little pressie for him.
True enough:) Cheers buddy!
He will probably shed some tears of joy…. hmmmm then again, if he does that, we better open his coffen;)
*deep sigh*
Coffin of course not coffen
Even with this announcement today on the Alan Tichmarsh show was a ‘religious representative’ still saying that there is no link whatsoever between evolution and the bible!
Pardon the pun but is it about time people starting singing from the same hymn sheet, especially when its come from such a great power, that I thought people were meant to listen to?
I do like ScreamingGreenConure’s comment about the Pullman books, tis oh so true…
Sorry Sara but I think it’s me reading your mind. I sent this one to Phillis and speedy as ever it was on site within a couple of minutes. Either that or Phillis is reading my mind!
Went to Catholic schools where evolution was taught as fact. Think this is just the Vatican distancing themselves from fundamentalist Christian creationists.
SAFETY NOTICE: IT IS IMPORTANT NOT TO READ OTHER PEOPLE OR PERSON(S) MIND WITHOUT A DESIGNATED SAFETY OFFICER!
CONTACT
MR D.V. BROWN – SAFETY OFFICER AT BROWN TOWERS
C/O: PHILLIS & COOPY
wow this is bullshit. its because the evidence against them and for darwin is so strong and obvious they now are trying to work out an excuse for it without completely disputing their whole religion. sad, why don’t they just admit that they are stubborn and wrong and get on with their lives.
The Designated Safety Officer, Mr D.V. Brown, is welcome to inspect the safety of my mental faculties at any time. May 23rd in Plymouth would be most convenient but if necessary an alternative appointment can be arranged.
Mikey, yeah it’s totally true. We have some problems in Canada with the Catholic church and those books. In Ontario there are publically funded Catholic faith-based schools that will not allow them. Are you guys having the same issue in the UK?
@ScreamingGreenConure: it isn’t that bad over here as far as the books goknt, the only trouble we have had was when the movie came out more than anything, we did however see press coverage to see the trouble you guys had when the movie was released etc…shame to think that that could have put a halt to the next 2 movies…Religion can be move over powering than you think, or it actually needs to be…
ScreamingGreenConure: Of course it isn’t. I’m not saying that Galileo should have been persecuted by the Church because he held a radical scientific belief. But I did say that the Church wasn’t wrong in ridiculing him. The reason they had a spat with him was because he walked up to the Church and said: “You’re wrong!” and when the Church said “Prove it!” he had no evidence. The arguments he came up with were scientifically poor and no-one was willing to accept his ideas. So when Gallileo rightly demanded that the Church change its stance toward geocentricism, the Church said “Screw you!” and Galileo then disappeared into a puff of insignificance until that fateful day when the world grew up, we realised that Aristotle was stupid and we discovered that the earth orbits the sun. Prior to that no one had any reason to question Aristotle. There was also a rather strange astrological theory floating about at the same time that describes exactly the same concept we understand today with fundamentally different mechanics. It’s called the Ptolemian view and it is considered fundamentally ‘wrong’ today (depending on which branch of epistomology you decide to attach yourself to) that is only because we have chosen to accept the Copernican view of astronomy. Now this view of astronomy is severely challenged by Einstein’s new interpretation of the universe. Einstein also doesn’t not believe in gravity. Now’s there’s something to think about.
And there’s could be grave faults in Galileo’s work. He was not infallible. It may have just been that he had derived the correct idea purely by coincidence. Just as Bohr discovered a model for the atom. It is considered ridiculously wrong these days. So wrong he should be laughed at. But he did manage to gain very accurate data for the model of a hydrogen atom. We still use he model today. But it’s the wrong model.
Muad’Dib:
You’re right. The Church is stuck in its reasoning but retrospectively. Oh and just a little note of warning because you’re probably not a theologian you wouldn’t know this slight point but the Pope isn’t an authority on science. And he is certainly not wrong. From a theological perspective that would render him completely divine (but he’s a human?). More importantly, what he says or does not say does not dictate what the scientific community believes (it never believes anything collectively anyway) nor does it dictate how a scientific revolution is played out. Point in case, plate tectonics is a very new theory. It was first hinted at in 1596 but was dismissed due to no legitimate evidence it was not accepted until the 60s. I’m dead certain that the Church would have laughed at you if you had said that the Earth wasn’t unchanging. Dead certain. But so would have the ENTIRE European scientific community at that time. They were in such dispute it took them 400 hundred years to get part way to where we are now. You need to be a little weary of this fact. It is a common misconception that religion somehow dictates scientific progression. But religion (like the greater community) holds the current scientific paradigm and does not alter it until it is sufficiently proven wrong.
That told you lot didn’t it!
Well no, because what he was accused of was heresy, not being unscientific. I’m sure his methods weren’t as good as today’s, I mean, I really hope we’ve improved a bit since those times, but even so he improved a telescope design and discovered some new objects out there. What he got in trouble for was his heliocentric ideas. The Inquisition didn’t threaten him with torture for being “unscientific” and I think he was really brave for standing up to them for so long. The apology wasn’t for laughing at him, it was for putting him on trial as a heretic for proposing the heliocentric model. If you google the apology Galileo made for his heresy, it doesn’t mention anything about his scientific methods. I don’t know where the idea that the Church was simply annoyed at bad science is coming from, and I keep trying to find out.
@ ScreamingGreenConure
Indeed, you’re right. He was accused for heresy because he advocated a view that would label the Church ‘wrong’ but this view of his was something radical and ludicrous, it would have been silly to have just accepted it. My point was not to say the Church was right in any of its actions but to try and explain that they had a valid reason not to believe Galileo. I think it’s unfair to retrospectively judge history. Take slavery for example. Slavery was genuinely decreeded as something non-evil, the general consensus of white Americans during the time was that black persons were created for this sole purpose. They were of course wrong but to say that they were wrong is a poor statement because we have to judge them on ideals/believes they did not possess.
The bad science argument actually came from the mouth of one of my History and Philosophy of Science tutors who studied the astronomical revolution through science. I believe he mentioned that the arguments he presented for heliocentrism were fundamentally incorrect and he shouldn’t have been believed on the basis of his arguments alone. Which may have been the reason it took a while for heliocentrism to be accepted. He may have had all this empirical evidence with no valid way of describing it.