Psychotherapists are offering to help “cure” gays and lesbians of their homosexuality without any evidence that such treatment is beneficial or safe. One in six said they had tried to turn gays straight, or reduce their gay or lesbian feelings, even though the mainstream medical view is that this is impossible.
The idea that homosexuality can be cured has a long and dubious history and the disclosure that a significant minority of therapists and doctors still think it is possible is “worrying”, Professor Michael King, of the University College Medical School, said. “Heaven knows what they do. We didn’t attempt to ask them because there is no evidence that anything works. We didn’t expect it to be happening at this rate and we are really rather concerned. It ought to stop. It is distressing and harmful and there is absolutely no evidence it works,” he said.
Speaking as a gay guy I find it tragic that they waste all this effort making gay men straight when the gay community at large knows the effect can be reversed in just 2 hours by the time honoured method of knocking back 3 pints of lager
It certainly seems to work on a number of straight guys I’ve encountered… and before you ask, I didn’t do anything to encourage it!
Is it just me or is the ‘absolutely no evidence it works’ part of that quote a little odd. I mean if there was evidence it worked would that somehow make it more acceptable????!!!!!!
It’s the repetition, the clear outrage of it. Like it would be understandable on some level if it actually worked. You can see why we would want people to stop having sex with, snogging, drinking tea with, anyone we hadn’t previously approved. But it doesn’t even work!!!!!!!!!
Made me laugh a lot. but then I don’t get out much!!
ndyar – to be fair, the same is true of my method of turning straight people gay with 3 pints of lager… it has short term success, but as soon as they sober up, they’re straight again!
I think it requires a larger test group for further study…
Before I go on my rant I should make public my vested intrerests…
I’m a shrink, and am an open bisexual
now thats out in the open…
This article is a sad example of the sensationalist media trying to demonize the medical profession.
Very few of the professionals(4%) studied would attempt to change a persons sexuality IF ASKED…
17% have indeed counseled people about their sexuality and common reasons for doing so include decreasing confusion, reducing distress, helping people come to terms with their sexuality and religion.
I don’t believe that it is at all right to do any of this, but I can see where the grey areas lie. There are (unfortunately) a lot of religious people in this world who believe that being gay is against the word of God and they may be petrified of being shunned by their family, their god and this may even lead to murder and suicide.
My point is that sometimes mental health professionals are backed into a corner and have no choice but to deal with these issues as best as they can because nothing is ever that simple.
I think that there should be more effort and money put into the de-stigmatization of homosexuality within those sad areas of society that still have a problem with it and not to blame the mental health professionals for trying to help in the only way they can in some really difficult situations.
The people involved do not want to be gay and have turned to therapy to help.
Some people do not want to be women and they can have therapy and surgery to make them into men.
Some people do not want to have particular sexual fantasies or urges and they also turn to therapy to help.
Whether it is harmful or efficacious does not factor into people’s approval (or otherwise) of any of these more socially acceptable changes.
We just do not like the judgement implied in the word “cure” I think and not the actual idea of people trying to change who they are in therapy.
Kelly: the word “cure” is an addition of the newspaper and has nothing to do with the study itself
While watching a docu called “Twins in the Womb” last week, scientists said (not me so dont shoot the messenger) that being homosexual is a “hormone imbalance”. If this is true then psychotherapists are wasting their time.
ndyar: I read it more as a reference to the shrinks that say they just do this because the client asks for it. Even if s/he does, it’s still quackery because it doesn’t work (as well as not addressing the issues that made the client ask in the first place, like discrimination).
Like I said in my email to Phillis, this is quite shocking to me. I thought western society was past the ‘must cure those who are somewhat different’ phase. I mean, I understand wanting a cure for things that cause harm, or cause someone to do harm. Things like autism, like narcissism, like sociopathy. You’re born with those, but they hurt you or make you hurt others, so they need to be cured. But being queer doesn’t harm anyone. Me kissing a girl is no different — shouldn’t be any different — from me kissing a guy, provided the kissee agrees with the whole process, of course. But that, again, is true in both cases.
The only ‘victims’ of homosexuality/bisexuality are the people who are squicked out by anything not intended to breed more humans. I think that means those people are the ones that need to be cured, really, as they’re the ones causing all the problems…
kelly: Transgender people actually have the brain structure of the opposite sex, so it’s not a matter of ‘making’ a woman into a man, it’s a matter of adapting the male brain’s female body, so that they fit together again. Fantasies may be adaptable, but lbgt people do afaik have a different brain structure, and no amount of therapy will change that — just as no amount of therapy will make that man who happened to be born with a female body a woman.
PAUL: From what I’ve read, it seems that homosexuality is indeed caused by a hormonal imbalance — not in the actual homosexual person, but in the womb during fetal brain development. Makes sense to me — we all start out as the same unisex design, then are molded by hormones during fetal development (as proven by androgyn insensitive XY females). If those hormones fluctuate during development, it makes sense that parts of the fetal brain develop the ‘other’ way around, and you end up with a person whose brain will eventually develop the sexual preferences that are more common to the opposite sex/gender. Or maybe you get some in-between structure and develop both preferences.
Sounds like a sensible explanation of the cause of homosexuality to me. Doesn’t make it wrong, or unacceptable, though. Just different.
OK, in an unusual departure for me, I’m going to be serious about this for a moment.
Peter Tatchell is the UK’s most vocal gay rights advocate. I don’t agree with his views on everything, but having checked his homepage index under the subheading of psychiatry and psychoanalysis, he mentions several cases of Gay ‘cures’ which have ended badly for those involved, and it makes for shocking reading.
I can’t get a direct link to it, but the main site is http://www.petertatchell.net/
It does sound pretty nasty, and while you could argue Tatchell tends to show only one side of the story, there’s a lot in those articles that gave me pause for thought.
I don’t think that the article is exploring the “types” of psychiatrists that find homosexuality deviant or worth curing. Take a look at the ex-gay movement here in the US. http://www.exodus-international.org/
Just because you have a doctorate don’t mean you are not blinded by your own prejudice, incapable of impartial scientific exploration. What about notable scientists and learned men (Sir A. C. Doyle) of the day being hoodwinked by mediums, the human vultures they are.
I think I got off track. In closing, What therapeutic benefit is there in making someone not gay? I will go ahead and point my finger at organized religion and mothers who want to have grandchildren.
I think I will order an ex-masturbator shirt right now. That surely needs to be cured straight away.
Ironic thing – my ex mistress was a psychiatrist – she turned me gay. I’m now fully cured (back to being bi-sexual).
Hi five for being bi!
its a good place to be, so many options, so little time…
Phillis, are you trying to confuse us with this man/woman gender thing again- if so you are going the right way about it. However- I think you are a guy- its way too obvious.
lauralou:
There is little difference to being bi,straight or gay – if you are in a relationship with someone you are with that gender- people think that bisexuals want both sexes all the time- what twaddle, bisexuals are just as loyal to the gender they are with as a straight person.
I know so many bisexuals that get insulted when in a relationship ppl say that they will want someone of the opposite gender to who they are with and will leave that person- that is also twaddle, if you are loyal you are loyal and commited to that person,-just wanted to out that out there as I’m sick of hearing the usual stereotyping for bisexuals.
Bit concerned about this. Your tweet for this blog said ‘psychiatrists’; this is about psychotherapists. They are totally different professions. Psychiatry is a branch of medicine, psychotherapy & psychology are not. No psychiatrist, certainly in the UK, should be attempting to ‘cure’ anyone of something that is not a disease. If they are it should be a case for the BMA to investigate.
Bisexual = twice as many dates! That’s a big WIN!
Rebecca:
You are right in some ways. If I am with someone then I am loyal to them, not their gender. I see people as individuals and prefer to be attracted to such attributes.
Greg: The study looked at clinical psychologists, psychiatrists and psychotherapists, although the differences between the groups were not highlighted in the media
Phillis- Stop making me have a crush on you.
lauralou- I would love to read the original research here and see what specific questions were asked of the counselors. I\’ve seen homophobia in the mental health professional community (when I was younger a therapist told my mom I wasn\’t gay, I just was too shy to have a boyfriend), but 20% seems a bit sketchy.
I wish Psyinfo were accesible to us plebes.
Rebecca
If you post your email then I will send it to you
If you want to do it more privately then send me a message on twitter, I\’m lauraloubum there
I don\’t really want to post my email address as I only use my work one
That goes for anyone that needs any scientific journal articles, just ask away, but don\’t publish them online
probably an off the wall idea again but…i think the term hetro, lesbo or gay are probably non existent…….and that we´re all Bi-sexed in essence…..not nesecarily prefering one or the other sex but, in essence dual in nature….we have male and female genes in ourself …..
and that the people who have the gene imbalance (more male then female or more female then the male genes) during birthtime that those people end up wanting to undergo a sexe change qua fysique….
?…just might be…?
Fascinating!!
Firstly, this is not, as some have pointed out, new news. It has been going on for centuries.
Secondly it’s ridiculous, and should be treated as such in order to take away its power. The cause of gaynousness is, while I’m sure academically interesting, irrelevant to this discussion. Why you are gay, straight, bi, etc etc. does not matter. However you ended up with your flavour of partner by choice or design, it’s allowed.
Thirdly lauralou, if you are indeed a shrink for the sake of your patients, could you please stop practising immediately. If your solution to someone telling you that they are under pressure from the world around them to stop being who they are, is not to tell them the world around them can go jump in the lake and instead focus on helping them come to terms with the fact that it is ok to be whoever they are. If your choice is to reinforce the stigmatism placed upon them by saying ok I’ll try and fix you, this is frankly morally corrupt. I can’t believe you had the nerve to write it down.
Paul for future reference we don’t start Unisex we all start female and then either make the change to male or not. Also menstruation could be described as a hormonal imbalance I have every month, can’t really see how that is dramatically defining of who I am as a person. This is one of many touted theories without scientific proof that is out there for why people are gay. I would like to put forward the theory that it is because there mother wore a delicate shade of aqua while they were in the womb. You never know!!!!
Finally cause this reply has been far too long. Please stop worrying if someone is or is not gay and why. Do you worry for hours about why someone is or is not tall???? If you are a scientist and just can’t help yourself, fair enough. But remember the question is academic. The answer does, or at least should not, have an impact on how we treat people. In anticipation of the argument that if you could prove it was a b c or d people would get more understanding, I say pish.
I am straight (seeing as you asked) the absence of a penis is a bit of a deal breaker. However, that said have I been attracted to women, yes. Might I chose to have a relationship with a woman at some point in the future, possibly, I don’t know. I am fairly sure that under testing, if there was one, I would be defined as straight. But it’s irrelevant, my choice needs to respected as OK regardless of what the test results say. Night all.
ndyar:
How can you presume that things are so simple? You must have an easy and sheltered life if you cannot see the difficult decisions that people have to make in order to make the best of a terrible situation. And sometimes, yes, unfortunately that may mean supporting someone to do something that you do not agree with in order to allow them to carry on living
NB: I don’t practice any more, I am doing a PhD, so no patients were harmed in the writing of this reply
ndyar: Actually, I made that comment about people starting out unisex. Though female is the default design, I agree (androgen insensitivity leads to XY females precisely because female IS the default), what I meant is that an embryo is steered down one or the other ‘path’ by hormones, and the capability to become either sex/gender is present.
I don’t ‘worry’ about why somebody is gay, or tall, or talented, or whatever. I do wonder about it, and when science tells me the likely reason, I find that very interesting. And you’re right, as I said above, it doesn’t change anything. In fact, it makes a case for pointing and laughing at those trying to change a harmless difference that’s physically rooted in the brain.
If you ask the fundies, the discriminating ones, what’s so bad about homo-/bisexuality, they say that if everyone were gay, humanity would die out. One, dumb point, because not everyone IS gay. Two, there’s enough hetero and bi people in opposite-sex relationships that aren’t reproducing, either. Whether I end up with a male or a female, I’m still not having any kids. Three, even if half the damn population turned gay this very moment, I still don’t think humanity would be a red-list species…
I am of the school of thinking that sexuality is learned. I have been training myself for a few months now to become a member of the “objectum sexuals” group (wikipedia if you don’t know this – but i prefer a nice big Oxford Dictionary – phwooar!).
I have recently succeeded in being highly aroused by a picture frame (containing picture of Derren) an action man doll (dressed as Derren) and had flings with several hoover attachments.
My conclusion is that long term exposure to any sexual activity can become the norm to people who are open minded enough to explore these ideas – this can become pleasurable and even sexually arousing.
In a world where people are highly aroused by anything from feet, smoking or whips to metal structures, amputation or smells – I find the idea of people being attracted to either gender simply rather normal and very acceptable.
But then maybe I need therapy?
Berber Anna; apologies I have just scrolled back up and realised it was you writing to paul, my bad, sorry. And yes I quite agree with your further points. I didn’t mean to diss the interesting scientific insights, I agree that the science is interesting, fascinating even. I just wanted to try and separate the science and the social. What worries me is that by not separating them people become engaged with arguments about the physical root. And as you rightly say trying to change a harmless difference based in a physical root is plainly laughable. But I worry about it falling into the it’s not their faults their inflicted with this curse category. It’s a difficult issue and I have not clarified my own feelings around the correct thinking in this. It came up for me when watching John Barrowmans program on being gay, bbc I think it was, and at the end I found myself both sad, disconcerted and annoyed by the fact that he seemed to need to be confirmed as gay in physiological manner. Because while he seems to be a happy, confident, well centered gay man in a loving relationship and a successful career with a great family. It somehow wasn’t going to be ok to be gay for no other reason than choice. I feel that speaks to societies fundamental discomfort with homosexuality and worry that a physical answer will rather than banish the stupidity actually move us further away from a true acceptance. This is a bit woolly I realise I am thinking allowed. I hope it makes sense and would be interested in your thoughts.
lauralou – I am sorry to disappoint you but I think things are anything but simple. I also have led anything but a sheltered life and while I can make a silver lining out of most things that skill comes from having had to. I have lived more than most. So I am not naive, nor do I take issue with the fact that people are having to deal with incredibly difficult situations. It was not with them I was taking issue. It was with your attitude and I will say again to your reply that to compound peoples problems by not helping them to resolve the issues in their life but side stepping them does no one a service. I was raised by two psychologist and have many friends who are psychologists so you can imagine morality of actions is a hotly debated topic in my world. I can not let thinking pass that I believe is morally unsound. I am not saying you are a bad person, please hear that sincerely I am sure you believe you are acting in kindness but you might want to argue it out with someone who does not agree with you and see if it changes your perspective. I find it a good exercise with most of my thinking. I hope your PhD is fun.
It is hormone imbalance IMO- like it is for some transexuals- it seems to be that way- I do wonder has anyone ever given a gay man more testosterone to see what would happen? I am very curious about it, our hormones define our sexuality IMO and they change sometimes.
This is sad, but not surprising. Think about it: same-sex marriage is still not legal in the UK and most of the US. The UK has civil partnerships, but it’s a seond class thing, seriously. It’s only within the past decade or so that Section 28 was repealed in Scotland. Section 28 forbade schools from teaching “acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship.” California just removed the right of same-sex couples to marry. Clearly, a huge part of the population of the western world thinks that being gay is somehow wrong. I would like to say something optimistic about how that’s changing, but I don’t think it is.
Personally I think you’re all bonkers, anyone who is not asexual needs therapy now. Seriously, it would make life much simpler!
petrova- I don’t think the testosterone thing is inherantly predictive of a person’s sexual orientation- there was a NPR story a few years ago where a reporter tested everyone in his office and the gay guy had the highest testosterone levels.
From my (possibly inaccurate) understanding, testosterone is usualy more linked to gender role conformity than sexuality- and even that is more of a correlation. Homosexuality and gender nonconformity also tend to coexist, but there are also a lot of gender normative gay people and queer-acting straight ones out there.
(Homophobia, though, is TOTALLY all about gender. IMHO.)
phillis- I dunno, there were plenty of women who really, really wanted to be lesbians in the 70s (as part of the whole radical lesbian seperatist thing) who just couldn’t make that work. I’ve also met a lot of otherwise open-minded people who claim to have never had an interest in someone not of their preferred sex. I think almost everyone’s bisexual, but some people are much more/less than others.
Maybe there’s a reason that some people are gay and other straight. But wouldn’t it be great if a certain someone was …. no i shouldn’t say that. I’ll just keep dreaming.
xx
There are quite a lot of animals that prefer there own gender as well, so it is perfectly normal.
Well, not normal ofcourse that gay guys prefer men above me, but hey … we can’t all be wise, can we .. LOL …
I was amazed to hear that a gay married couple who got a child via a sperm donor need to adopt the child (the one that did not give birth to the child will not be considered automatically as the co-parent, therefor adoption is needed). Their marriage def. does not give the same rights. Why other rules for same gender marriages ? Really does not make sense.
Hm, in gay world they would ofcourse wanna try cure heterosexuality …. especially those they fancy for theirselves ….
Ms. G, I think there are only six countries in the world in which same-sex marriage is treated as equal to heterosexual marriage. What country was this couple in? There’s a chance their marriage wasn’t even officially recognised, because their relationship is seen as less valid than a heterosexual couple’s. Sorry to be blunt, but it’s very nasty and the sooner people realise that, the better.
There are only a handful of countries that even allow a gay partner to apply to adopt their parter’s kid. And in the US, Arkansas recently passed a law that the only people who can adopt or foster are those in a legal marriage. Gay marriage is not legally recognised there.
petrova: I believe that has been tried, actually, as one of the quack therapies in question. And it’s not a good idea, anyway, because dosing a healthy male with extra testosterone causes all manner of side effects.
And anyway, it wouldn’t work, because (at least according to most articles I’ve read about it), it’s not the hormone balance in the adult that dictate sexual preference, it’s the hormones that person was exposed to when they were in their mother’s womb.
Rebecca: I’ve only met a few males that seemed to be bisexual, but many (though certainly not all) of the females I know do seem to also find other females attractive to a greater or lesser extent. A lot of them don’t act on it, though, or consider anything with a girl ‘not real’ (as opposed to ‘real’ relationships with a guy). I think it kind of ties into the whole weirdness of guys ‘allowing’ their girlfriends to kiss other girls, but not other guys. Weird social thing, if you ask me…
SGC: I think marriage is a strange, outdated concept anyway (Why would you sign a contract promising to love someone? We’re free people, let’s love our partners because we want to, not because we signed a paper and divorce would be a hassle), but I think it’s even sillier to randomly determine it’s a m/f thing and same sex couples can’t come play, nyah nyah. I mean, if it truly were about making and raising offspring (as a lot of fundies say), then they shouldn’t let infertile, elderly or childfree couples get married, either.
I saw a documentary about same-sex marriage on MTV (an episode of True Life, actually). They interviewed this one young guy (a right wing punk, never heard of those before…) who was against it. His argument? ‘I don’t want to see those people and imagine them having sex’. Uh, yeah, easy solution — keep your dirty mind out of other people’s sex lives then, buddy…
Seriously though, I haven’t heard one argument from the antis that actually made sense, and yet they get to dictate other people’s lives? That’s messed up…
Oh yeah, I definitely agree that the restrictions on same-sex marriage are wrong and absolutely shameful. It’s as bad as disallowing mixed race marriage, in my opinion. I’m not a huge fan of marriage in general either, but it does have its advantages regarding inheritance, power of attorney in the case of medical emergency, that kind of thing.
I think it’s incredibly sad that when a person’s having psychological issues because they feel guilty or conflicted about homosexual feelings, a therapist could get things so staggeringly backward that they think the ‘cure’ is to get rid of the homosexuality rather than help the person realise that the guilt and conflict are the unnatural responses that need to be left behind.
All I have to say is:
How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb?
Only one, but the lighbulb has to want to change itself .
Oops. Wrong thread!
On the objectum sexuals: I had this problem with my cockatiel once he (might be she, haven’t had a DNA anaylsis and he’s a whiteface pied, so can’t be visually identified) hit puberty. I guess it’s a stage everyone goes through!
Do you think it could ‘cure’ my straightness? It’s a disease I’ve been suffering from for a long time
One in five? Jeeeesus, I thought psychiatry students were taught differently these days.
My mum was a psych’ nurse for years and when I heard that people in her profession back then were taught that been gay was a mental illness I thought “well, that was the sixties and seventies”.
You wonder how they can get away with that, I feel sorry for people who go to a “professional” for help and end up speaking to one of them.
It’s the combination of that and all the stories my mum told me that makes me not trust mind doctors at all, and I’d sure as hell never go to see one myself.
I don’t believe you are gay Derren. I’m not even sure you are even bisexual. I think your coming out as gay may well be part of some elaborate trick you are playing. .Or possibly just a cunning ruse to protect your privacy..
I’ve been studying your hands in pictures and videos. You don’t have gay man’s hands. And that’s not the only thing that just doesn’t quite ring true.
- What about all the gay sex he has? – Phillis
“cure”….? it’s not a disease, thats so disgustingly homophobic .
you are who you are, accepting might be hard, but to turn to that..
i just think thats horrible.