As loathed as I am to put Nicky Campbell’s junk food format of debate on here I know it will be of interest to some to hear about this issue. There’s some irrelevant points, shouting-down and few people are allowed to develop an argument but there are interesting highlights and at no point does anyone wheel on a dangerously overweight mother-of-nine on incapacity benefit.
Should Britain ban the Burka?
Comments
(43 Responses)
dont ban it- because we can ban anything we dont like then. best just to give people the enviroment where the choice is theirs without worry of judgement. maybe?
Hmm. Ultimately, it’s an article of clothing. I read somewhere recently (can’t remember where) that it’s a “self propelling machine for transporting women who choose to use that form of transport” – should we ban bicycles? Some might argue that it is sinister, but history is littered with symbols that have been given an inappropriate slant (think of the swastika). Should we not fly the flag of St George because of its BNP associations? Of course not. It’s surely up to non-bigots to refuse to allow perfectly ordinary and innocent things to be given a meaning that they simply don’t have.
I am watching at least part of this before work – but my first concern is for ninjas. If the burka is banned, will the ninja mask also be at risk?
The brilliant bit is where the burka wearer is utterly flummoxed about men not having to cover up. You could see her think about it for a second, then realise that thinking about it too much would screw up her faith, and then she closed her mind to the question. Like the question was a temptation from the devil or something (no idea if Muslims believe in the devil).
This was an interesting if not one sided debate, all centered around one muslim woman in a burka. there was lots of support for her but no real agenda, or argument as to why it SHOULD be banned. Come on christian brits have your say FFS oh of coarse, its un christian to do so, and by the time you feel you need to it will be too late. Ban it, its a christian country (for now) we wouldnt be able to express our views in a muslim country, or build houses of god.
Here the muslim women dont wear burka’s but the other thing in which you can still see their face, so they merely cover their hair and bodies.
Burka’s: anyone can hide underneath those burka’s .. also those who were not supposed to be in there, so those who would wear them for criminal reasons or such.
Clear communication due to burka’s can be a result (faces can indeed fuck up communication quite a lot, objective listening is quite hard .. think about testing a candidate .. oral exams … I’m sure those are not that objective, although the voice itself will be capeable of manipulating someone else as well ofcourse. On paper then? Can think up reasons why texts can manipulate as well ofcourse ….
I myself would not want to wear a burka … as it is only now and then that I feel like .. my god, give me a burka please .. (serious, there are times ..). Way too hot as well. As a fashion statement I mean .. would never work for me.
would I want the burka to be banned? I think in some situations they should not be allowed, just as we all fall under the ID laws. If I go to a moslim country they want us to cover our hair and such as well in certain places, so why should the other way not work as well. Or do the husbands of those women dont want this, have they given this thought? Or did they not even get to that point yet?
Burka’s have a tendency to give people a less safe feeling. Not without importance.
People can have stuff underneath their burka without that it shows ………. explosives, weapons, or simple shop lifting .. (ehehe …)
Oh, and eyes .. those can have their influence on male as well. I think muslim women in burka’s probably work their eyes even more than other people without burka .. or better said .. those get more upclose to the person in front of them as there is nothing else to watch. I know from seeing that not all female in burka dislike teasing men with their eyes,
So, not a complete ban (I want to wear back home, in my car and with family what I wish to wear as well), but during your time at school, exams, airports, shops and lot of other public//official locations .. I think I am in favor of this. So the complete burka in which you only can see the eyes. If this would lead to the fact that those women are never being able to get out of their houses as their men dont allow them that … then we need to check if we allow that type of situations in our country (unless the women theirselves choose for this then ofcourse ….).
Men in burka’s …. makes me think of eyes wide shut …. draws my interest in a way … ehehehe … but that’s not really related to this topic … not at all. In a way it is .. if you think a little further ahead … anonymous rape and such ..
I’m sure most muslims are good people .. and dont hide something underneath their burka’s .. it’s just that it’s always a few who screw it all for everybody … as it is in the whole world unfortunately …
I’m not convinced by the freedom of choice angle… the burka is a culturally imposed item, imposed by male clerics hundreds of years ago and passed down through generations with a view to not inciting ‘uncontrollable’ male lust. If it’s sauce for the goose, it’s sauce for the gander… where is the compulsion for male muslims to cover their faces so horny women won’t leap on them with minimal provocation?
Rather like the shoe and the gourd in “life of Brian”, it all depends which interpretations of the Koran you follow, but the equivalent in the UK would be for a woman to give up the vote, give up equal representation in a court of law and to act like a Stepford wife minus the enhanced body-image. It’s a breeding ground for lousy self-esteem. You are free to do all those things of your own accord, but it doesn’t make it moral to encourage that type of sexist thinking as a cultural norm.
To my mind equal rights for women trumps the “my imam told me to do it” card every time.
Compared to the inane discussions on Question Time and Any Questions earlier in the week – neither of which had any Muslim panel members – this was quite interesting. I find it very encouraging to see an Imam denouncing the Burka.
I can’t believe it had never occurred to me to question why Muslim men aren’t required to cover their faces. What a telling reaction.
It’s all very well to say that women should be free to choose but, whether we like it or not, the Burka has become a symbol of societies where that choice does not exist, so it does not sit comfortably with me.
@Englandsnumber6: I think the UK might be a pretty much secular nation. I hope so, anyway, otherwise I am REALLY screwed if I have to go back.
Actually, having visited Jeddah in Saudi Arabia I should add that this multicultural acceptance is often a one-way street anyhow.
I’m an atheist, but if I was a Christian and wore an obvious rosary round my neck in Jeddah it would be a matter for the courts. In that light it does seem like a bit one-sided that they get to express their cultural values here and we don’t get to express ours in the middle east.
What hasn’t been said about this topic sofar I’d say. All cards have not been on the table so far in any official debate .. people tend to speak with double tongues … whereas the real reasons underneath are quite simple, on both sides. Should personal reasons count more than national security items. And how strong are certain muslim female who wear those burka’s really connected to their own motivation?
There is no god or such that can prevend crime of all kind, no matter what you are wearing. Nor will this world work with the structures often used in muslim societies. If you do not live in a muslim based country, you will have to adapt. Just as anyone elsewhere will have to. The borders were there for a clear reason, just as I have walls in my house. I dont want to walk over the street and see a sea of burka’s around me. I prefer to see people, alive. Not wrapped up in burka’s. It’s depressing. It feels as if something very bad is going on. It feels as if we apparently need to hide ourselves from something. Don’t tell me it is really man ….. I will tell you then that man actually can turned on more by something wrapped up than unwrapped … their drive can become even bigger to get to the underneath ..
Nowadays a few people seem to want to wear the burka for other reasons than the muslims originally wore them. For even more wrong reasons I’d say. Please do have the guts to say so.
May I add that god and all the others with the other names apparently did not know man that well after all …. (nor female …). Or was it just human’s focus (male) who started to interpret words a bit differently to their own benefit. Discrimination of women has been done so well, that those women actually started to believe that it is in their own good.
All with you B Dylan, all with you.
May I recommend that the muslim and women follow a course which educates them in normal male-female interactions? Supervised ofcourse, we dont want those wild muslim men go wild if they see the women run around without their burka. That would be dangerous. (just kidding ofcourse .. for those who read this with a serious tone …)
And as the koran, bible and all other books have been changed over time more often (the book itself changed with quite a lot of readers) .. it can change again … the word burka wasn’t there … we can all make a mistake and we can all change our point of views with time. This is serious .. On my behalf they could be burned, but hey, I dont want to keep others from reading their preferred books. It’s just me, not seeing anything I need in those books. It’s a bit out of this world I’d say.
Lot of stuff attached to the burka huh? Now then .. geez, is it just me or is it really that hot underneath this balaclava …. Who am I???? What do you mean?
Throw your burka’s off you muslim women …. run wild and free ….. go muslim chicks .. go ! Speak up, no burka needed here.
Why do older muslim women still need to wear burka’s by the way? It’s common knowledge that all hormones in men drop dead when older age is nearby … ehehe ..
In the Arab News a few years back (the English Language newspaper published in Saudi Arabia) they published the following question and answer in their ‘Questions about Islam’ section.
Q: When travelling through customs, the officer asked my wife to uncover her face so he could check that she matched the photo. Should I have killed him?
A: Although a strict interpretation of the law would put you within your rights to have killed the man, it’s probably good that you didn’t. Remember that it must have been as much of an ordeal for a muslim to have to look upon your wife’s face as it must have been for you to allow it.
(I wish I had a link but I’m paraphrasing from memory. But that was the jist of it.)
In response to Flapjack, I think it is a freedom of choice issue. The UK is a free country Muslim woman should always have the freedom and choice to wear what they wish. Just as I personally choose to wear my own symbols of bowing to the preferences of a male dominated society – I particularly enjoy high heels and red lipstick (and if you don’t think the UK is make dominated do a quick gender count in any legislative office).
Please give these burka-wearing women some credit. They are not a dumb suppressed minority, these are women from a wide range of cultural backgrounds, languages and differing Muslim beliefs. The reasons why they wear the burka can be personal, religious, cultural, political or out of an obligation. What right do we have to decide why they wear it, and wether or not they should.
In regards to your comment about “this multicultural acceptance is often a one-way street anyhow”. Yep. the UK is a free country, residents have the right to choose what they wear (within it’s own legal boundaries of course). Saudi Arabia is not a free country, their laws are a lot stricter, not up for debate and enforced more fiercely than here. So I agree, it’s all a bit one sided. But because Saudi deems it unacceptable for freedom of expression do you think it is fair that the UK does the same by legislating a clothing choice?
I’ve never agreed with making woman feel they should have to cover up and walk 10ft behind the man etc. Obviously it’s sexist and will give them very low self esteem! But if thats what they want to do and that’s their way of life then who are we tell tell them they cant? its only clothing.
And yeah it could be anyone under there which could pose security risks, but if someone wants to be hiden they will find a way
Also, just because other countries are strict and ban other expressions of religions/cultures different to their own, does that mean we should? That’s not progress! You can’t move forward by being spiteful.
Alongside the issue of personal choice there is also the issue that the burka is a barrier to communication. Personally I would find it difficult to carry out normal “face-to-face” transactions with someone whose face was almost completely obscured. Imagine if you could not see your doctor’s or teacher’s face properly, wouldn’t the whole process of consultation or being taught have an important ingredient lacking?
A particular encounter with a woman in a burka will always remain with me. A while ago I was in hospital and the woman in the bed opposite me was wearing a burka. She had just suffered a miscarriage and required an operation to sort things out. She was in obvious distress. Imagine the indignity she suffered when in front of the whole ward a group of older muslim men debated whether or not she should be allowed to have the necessary operation because members of the surgical team were male. She was allowed no part in this conversation. I have to say that her husband obviously cared for her a great deal and argued her case strongly. Eventually, she was permitted the operation on the grounds that she would be fully anaesthetised and so would be unaware what was going on. Didn’t understand quite the logic of that argument but the blatant unfairness of the situation will always stay with me.
@ Rachel – I’m not suggesting we legislate that they shouldn’t be allowed to wear a burka, but the burka has as much to do with female empowerment as a salt-shaker has to do with slug empowerment. Whoever invented that did not invent it for the benefit of slugs. I speak as I find… and I’ve got to say I’m uncomfortable with the implicit sexism, not to mention what it implies about taking responsibility away from guys who supposedly can’t keep it in their pants if they see so much as a female face.
If you condition people to think that showing your nose in public is the equivalent of appearing as a Playboy centrefold then you’re going to get a population of emotionally repressed neurotic wrecks.
You know what effs me off? The fact if we go to a muslim country we havew to respect their “rules” and be modest with our clothes, no topless sunbathing etc etc- so why do ppl who come here have the CHEEK to moan about us being a majorly christian country?
Im not any religion but it pisses me off all the same. If you dont like it then dont come to this country.
I think the muslim religion is the worst for the sexism -so is that a good thing?
@Mrswhorboys, I think the issue is whether or not the UK should ban the use of burkas, not whether or not Muslims should get to enforce the wearing of it.
@Flapjack: it IS one-sided when other countries ban religious clothing or whatever, and we allow it, but I think it makes us a good side!
Tolerance has to be earned. It should never be given unconditionally. Would the burka wearers and their male equivalents tolerate letting us wear whatever we wanted in a country they control? If not then there is no reason to allow them to do so in the name of tolerance.
Just to clarify, some of you appear to have the idea I want to ban burkas… I don’t believe in banning them, but it doesn’t mean to say I condone them in terms of the outdated patriarchal repressive attitudes they represent.
How come every other culture in the world gets by using basic self control as a means not to proposition every passing woman in the street?
Besides, my boyfriend’s muslim, so which of us should wear a burka? Am I inflaming other gay guy’s sexual desires just by showing my face in the street? I should be so lucky!
Hi back Flapjack. I’m happy to hear that you don’t want the UK to ban the burka, we are in agreement there.
As this is the issue that the blog post was about, you can understand my misinterpretation of your words.
Don’t worry I never suggested that the burka has anything to do with female empowerment, I don’t think anyone has suggested that. We could talk about female empowerment in middle eastern countries – I think freedom of clothing would be a low priority after things like education – but that would be getting off topic.
The topic is “Should Britain the burka”. my answer is No, let individuals choose what they want to wear.
Unfortunately the video only showed one burka-wearing woman and her reasons why she wears it. As I mentioned before women have all sorts of different reasons for choosing to cover their faces. I have lived in Sudan and Egypt and travelled through Yemen, Turkey, Iran and UAE. I met many women who wear burka and none of them were “emotionally repressed neurotic wrecks.”
I’d like to quote the second comment that I think is thoughtful and intelligent: Gaz said “It’s surely up to non-bigots to refuse to allow perfectly ordinary and innocent things to be given a meaning that they simply don’t have.”
“Is there a danger that males in the audience will be attracted to every female’s face here in the studio?” “Well…not necessarily every female face.” She called half the women in the audience uggos. She’s pretty much proved that she doesn’t have a very good reason for wearing the burqa. She wasn’t even being aggressively questioned and she faltered on simple queries. BBC One Show had a far better defender of the burqa on this week. I’m not sure we should ban the burqa, although I think it’s ridiculous.
I used to work in a bank and couldn’t serve women wearing burqas because I couldn’t lip read them and would have to pass them to another teller. I’m not profoundly deaf by a long shot, but when concealing the mouth, I find it extremely difficult to understand what people say. They would sigh and give frustrated eye-rolls, because they thought I was being prejudiced perhaps, but really they are alienating themselves from society. At least from the society of the hearing impaired.
Interesting link from the Reason Project with some relevance to this…
http://www.reasonproject.org/newsfeed/item/qaeda_seeks_revenge_against_france_over_burqa/
Heeellloo Alll,
Im a muslim, born in britain and have always lived here. I do not wear the burka but i do wear a headscarf. Wearing the burka, as i understand it, is a personal choice, but i think that the women wearing the burka should consider and respect the customs and rules of this country, which is obviously the point of identity.
I wear a headscarf and have for many years, and i believe that i do what the quran tells me to do, which is to dress modestly if i am a woman…
this is the part in the quran in which it says this:
“And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their head coverings to cover their bosoms, and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband’s fathers, or their sons, or their husband’s sons, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent…” (Surah An Nur: 31) holy quran
http://quran-hadith-studies.suite101.com/article.cfm/what_is_hijab#ixzz0KFBhs7PT&D
i beleve that when god states, to not disply there beaut, i think that is where the confusion between islamic sects and tribes come from. You will find that some muslims like mylsef, would interpret this as having to cover your hair and breasts, neck and arms. Others would argue that a woman has to cover her face too…which is why some women wear the burka…but it is more a traditional and cultural thing then an islamic one…if you understand…=)
[...] have just fulminated around, all by myself, on the subject but I ended up on an article about it on Derren Brown’s excellent blog. Now that even the Brits are officially joining the crusade, that was too [...]
This debate can’t really come to a logical conclusion in the UK anyway with so many myths, factual inaccuracies and outright racism floating about, encouraged by Daily Mailesque vitrol.
The niqaab hindering communication is a non-issue, in Muslim countries there are many niqaab wearing women working and living out prefectly normal lives,
1.Niqaab predates Islam 2. MINORITY of women are forced to wear it, it’s generally a personal choice like Nuns, or goths etc. 3. Niqaab DOES stop unwanted stares from men, in the western male mind all women are supposed to deal with pervy looks, even like them. We don’t.
At the end of the day it IS a peice of cloth. If a woman has the right to walk around in a bikini why doesn’t a Brit woman have the right to cover her face in the UK?
Storm in…
@Sara Leighs
I know it may be a bit hard to grasp, but the major difference between the burkha and the bikini is that one cannot walk into a store and rob it in a bikini, well because everyone can see your face!
If people are not allowed in public with their face covered up, ie Balaclava’s, Ninja headgear etc, why should someone be able to flout the law merely on the basis of their “faith”?
Only recently a “Jedi” was removed from a supermarket, because he also followed his faith, which required his face to be concealed in a hoodie. What is the difference between the 2 when you get right down to it?
They are both concealing the identity of the wearer and both are doing it because of their faith.
@Stublore – ‘the major difference between the burkha and the bikini is that one cannot walk into a store and rob it in a bikini, well because everyone can see your face!’
And other bits. I doubt anyone would be looking at the face. Especially if there was running involved in the getaway. In fact, they might even get away with the theft as it’s actually quite a good bit of misdirection to wear a bikini on a robbery… Hmmm.
A black tent. The choice of every discerning woman in the summer heat. You would, wouldn’t you?
My concern is that it absolves men of responsibility and goes back to the old, ‘she was asking fot it because she was wearing a short skirt’, attitude. This is an idea that, if it becomes prevalent in society, affects ALL women. If men wore a burqa as well then I wouldn’t see it as sexist.
On the ‘protection’ issue, what would happen if a black person, say, went to the police to complain about racial harrassment and was told to wear a burqa so that people couldn’t see their skin colour?
Finally, why can’t people have a civilized debate about this without resorting to childish name-calling and insults?
Yes, ban the damn burka, it is well known that 75% or more of communication is not verbal, so they have no argument there, also I have no problem with different religious people displaying their faith in different ways, but to cover your whole body is rediculous as well as a security risk for people who would abuse it.
If I walked into my local town centre covered in black and with a mask covering my face, Im sure I would be arrested in about 10 seconds.
My wife and I are travelling to the middle east soon. If we both wore Burkas and presented our passports questions would be asked as to who is who. If I or my wife travelled alone qustions would still be asked because of the christian names on the passport. If I changed my name to Fatima Ahmed by deed poll and used her passport no would be asked, regardless of gender, perfect disguise for all terrorists.
Ban this degrading garment in the UK and Europe, it is hostile to all western values.
the video has gone, I really wanted to see it.
i think that the niqab is particularly frustrating to western women who have gone through years of struggle to win the rights we have now. the wearing of the niqab can be seen as almost an affront, a kind of anti feminist thing. come to think of it, I’m a bit surprised the right wing don’t want to adopt it for the rest of us.
you shouldn’t need to hide behind any kind of a covering to be free from the threat of sexual attack. if the need for modesty is because men are so untrustworthy, then perhaps they should wear them too as getting out of a niqab would certainly slow down any random naughtyness.
This is Britain for fcks sakes!!! Not the Far East! If they want to wear the Burka the they should Burka off back to their home land! Dark windscreens on cars are not alloud so why is the Burka or full face vails aloud for Islamic drivers???? How do the police know if the woman, man under the burka has a UK licence or even a Ban???? Ban it NOW!!!
Oh hi there, topic necromancer.
I assume your female relatives will all wear burqas or niqaabs if they ever go on holiday in a country with an Islamic tradition, then?
While I consider myself to be as feminist as a man can be, and while I also abhor the oppression of women by any means, I believe the argument about covering flesh has been skewed by public perceptions of the Muslim faith.
All cultures (including western) require us to cover our flesh. The amount of coverage varies from place to place and from culture to culture. I cannot walk down the street with my willy out, for example.
Nor can a woman walk about bare-breasted – but I can. Is that oppressive? Are women ‘forced’ to cover their breasts in order to not inadvertently titillate men? (no pun intended). It could be argued that women would be at risk of sexual violence if they walked about with bare breasts in a culturally unusual way, for example late at night on the Euston Road.
We all draw the line somewhere. I remember watching African villagers with their breasts out and wondering about cultural norms and mores. Do their men get excited all the time? Is it just so ‘normal’ to see boobs that it no longer excites?
This is how we, as westerners, feel about arms and calves and head hair. It is normal for us.
If a woman chooses to cover herself as a result of cultural norms, can I criticise?
I am not really sure I can, because I am not comfortable naked in public either.
I draw the line in a different place, you see.
We are all expected by our culture to cover up.
However, I am truly torn between my respect for women, my desire to promote gender equality and my understanding of cultural differences.
No man should ever be able to force a woman to cover up.
Cor blimey it is a THORNY ISSUE. Feel free to rip holes in my woolly thinking and bleeding heart liberalism.
I am muslim and know that the burqa has no place in british society.. it is for these very extremist views that I choose to live in this free and democratic country..
Face covering has been worn by many men and women in parts of arabia/sahara to protect face from sand… It is also part of some cultures… but these “nijas” that we see on the street of britains streets are a new wave of wahabbi extremist coming from Saudi… THIS SHOULD BE STOPPED.
I fully support the banning of burqa in British society.
Open minded and moderate muslims will understand why, only the extremists will oppose it… If you want to live such an Islamic life away from the kuffar and idolatorers.. then go live in Saudi/Yemen and see if you can claim your benefits there.. Touche!
Wasalaam Amina
I, like some of you , have lived in Saudi arabia. It seems to me that the women are forced to cover, by the men, so that they (the lady) does not attract other men. The thinking is that it is the woman to blame if they get unwanted attention from men and therefore not the mans fault if he has to rape her or such like. Im sure you have seen cases where women have been raped and are stoned as its their doing! It is probably safer in saudi to keep covered in order to keep out of trouble. Fortunately, the majority of men in the U.k dont seem to be easily tempted, so I would think these lovely ladies could go about their business un-covered, with out fear of getting into trouble. I also fully support the ban here.
Do people not see the flaw in this kind of reasoning? They feel that the burqa (or, in other cases that I’ve seen discussed, the headscarf or the yarmulke or the crucifix) is either being forced onto people, or is a symbol of an oppressive belief system. So they propose, as a solution, to force people to part with these symbols. How is that any better than the system behind the symbols? You don’t reach people, you can’t teach them the follies of religion, if you’re going to tell them you’ll punish them if they don’t see things your way. People who perceive themselves as being under attack will dig their heels and will never truly listen to your point — they may follow it outwardly, but they won’t GET it.
Education, not oppression, people.