Professor Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at Ulster University, said many more members of the “intellectual elite” considered themselves atheists than the national average.
A decline in religious observance over the last century was directly linked to a rise in average intelligence, he claimed. But the conclusions – in a paper for the academic journal Intelligence – have been branded “simplistic” by critics.
Professor Lynn, who has provoked controversy in the past with research linking intelligence to race and sex, said university academics were less likely to believe in God than almost anyone else. A survey of Royal Society fellows found that only 3.3 per cent believed in God – at a time when 68.5 per cent of the general UK population described themselves as believers.
Wikipedia – Religiosity and intelligence
[...] This post was Twitted by edmarno [...]
People with higher IQs are more likely to question God.
And what the heck is “intellectual elite” all about?!
So, basically, he’s published ‘research’ of questionable methodology saying “I, and people like me, are of above average intelligence.”
I would say there’s a distinct difference between “not believing in God” and “calling yourself atheist”. Someone who is an atheist does more then not believing in a God, an atheist believes there is no God. That in it self is, of course, just as much a religious believe as a theist who believes there is a God. Someone who “doesn’t believe in God” could also be in between, not believing in the existence of God, but also not trying to disprove the possibility. I personally don’t understand why a lot of atheists call their ideas “scientific” because they have just as little prove as theists. I personally would say the more “intelligent” approach to this would be to say the chances in favor of the theists are slim, but not nill.
But this is obvious, no? Surely the more intelligent you are, the less likely you are to believe in creation *myths* or what Richard Dawkins calls ‘tedious wank’. Actually, he doesn’t say that. I’m paraphrasing, of course.
Thank God I’m an atheist!
Also, I rather fear that the term ‘intellectual elite’ has been quite badly misunderstood by those who are not part of it…
@Mary – he was a professor of psychology at Ulster University – he’s hardly going to be in the bottom 10% is he? besides you missed out the bit that says “we’re smarter and know a lot of stuff and don’t believe in supernatural powers.”
How do you measure “a rise in average intelligence”? Surely, if average intelligence was rising, all our IQs would be dropping?
(phillis – i posted this a moment ago, but it disappeared… spamfilterfodder?)
- not sure?! also why would IQ’s drop? rise in intelligence = rise in IQ – Phillis
@Peter – oh Peter how simple you are. The lack of scientific evidence of something is just as scientific as lots of evidence for something.
Here’s how science works. If you find evidence for something you develop a THEORY. If that theory is held up by new evidence it becomes a “proven theory” it is still a theory though.
The LACK of evidence supporting a THEORY is said to be “unscientific”. The lack of evidence for gods is NOT faith – it’s basic science.
If scientists “knew everything” then they would just stop wouldn’t they?!
What’s Derren’s IQ?
- it was 217 last time measured – but I think he fiddled the score – Phillis
Actually Peter, an ‘Atheist’ is a lack of belief in god, not a belief in ‘No God’
Theism is a belief in god. A-theism is someone who lacks that belief. (Not replacing it with any other belief)
So your statement
‘ I personally would say the more “intelligent” approach to this would be to say the chances in favor of the theists are slim, but not nill.’
describes atheism very well. In fact it aligns precisely with Dawkins in The God Delusion
An intelligent person would always leave open the possibility of being persuaded by sufficient evidence.
And so the atheistic position is the most sensible if you see no convincing evidence for a god/gods.
@Peter – that’s a very interesting point…
Does “believing there’s no God” mean “not believing there is a God”? I suspect this query may already have been debated, and may not have any definitive answer, so I really don’t want to spark up another argument – please consider that question rhetorical.
Wikipedia defines atheism: “In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities”.
Can the absence of a belief be considered a belief in itself? Or should there be a “belief vacuum” between two opposing beliefs? “Andy believes X; Billy believes NOT X; Charlie doesn’t believe either X or NOT X”.
I do know this: say “belief” enough and it sounds really funny.
What pains me about Atheists is that they feel that by not beleving in God thatthey think they are RIGHT!!! ARGH!!
If they can see that this type of thought alone showed a lack of cleverness then how can they say they are clever but are dumb. I have an IQ of well over 300 and I beleve in God!
So what am I, if I am not an atheist? I do actually believe in the inexistence of God.
I can has an IQ of 450?
At the end of the day you have to be pretty weak mentally to believe that a fictional being created everything. Gods are for those who have no faith in themselves.
@JC: how can you have an IQ of over 300 and write sentences like “how can they say they are clever but are dumb.”? Even Einstein’s IQ is estimated to have been less than 200.
First of all I am an atheist, but I want to believe that I am open minded and I always try to have (reasonable) conversations with religious people. The thing that I’ve observed is that many religious people can be very rational about a vast number of things, but always when the conversation comes to religion they are in denial of even questioning their beliefs, and that for me is not intelligence. Intelligence is the ability to question, test and research. I really cannot understand their denial.
@Phillis – oops, IQ is normalised, it’s a ratio compared to “100″ which is (or should be) the national average. If the average goes up, but yours doesn’t, you’ll “lose” points.
I could be wrong though… IQ is a tricky thing to measure…
Probably worth mentioning that our methods for measuring IQ are fairly flawed anyway…
I don’t understand this need 2 pigeon hole ppl into different little grps. I study human evolution as my chosen career, & do not believe in the existence of a god, any type of god or deity. I don’t PERSONALLY feel the need 2 blame my sins 2 the actions of a dark-lord, or praise my efforts on a higher power. I feel my actions are my own whether good or bad. however, im sufficiently tolerant & intelligent enough 2 allow others 2 have their beliefs without judgement. if that makes me an atheist – or not, those r ur labels not mine! i think south park did a brilliant job highlighting the dangers of everyone jumping on the ‘atheist’ bandwagon though… science is there to question and 2 sought answers – religion is there 2 impose unquestionable dogma on their followers, i choose the former!
@JC – i think thats the amount of calories in a McFlurry – an easy mistake to make im sure….
Altough I am an athiest, I would like to believe I am open minded enough to be ok with being contradicted if God ever revealed him/herself in the future…. unlike this fellow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UtwMczGKX8
The onus is on whoever is arguing their point, not just the religious
@Norm: What is that? Appeal to authority?
I’m saying that he has apparently published a body of work which purports to intelligence to whiteness, maleness, and a career in academia — which, shock, are all attributes he possesses. As glossed over in the article, he fails to take into account sociological factors which privilege white people, men and people in industrialised countries when taking IQ tests (as I think Siobhán’s comment hinted). He attributes the phenomenon of “lack of faith in God” to “higher IQ” — because correlation = causation — without acknowledging any wider sociological factors.
Sorry, that should be “purports to LINK intelligence to…”
Wow, those are punchy placards.
@JC; while there are unquestionably people with very high IQs who believe in God, I do have to question your claim of “an IQ of well over 300″.
Marilyn vos Savant holds the Guinness World Record for the highest IQ at 228, though there are acknowledged problems with calculating IQ at such high levels, and claims of others with high IQs going up to about 240-ish maximum. This was using a method that calculated the “mental age” based on how many questions answered and then using the formula Mental age/chronological age * 100. IQs are no longer calculated this way.
The standardised IQ test operates to a max 148, after which they are not accepted to be accurate.
Firstly, may I ask whether you’ve contacted Guiness to report your score, and secondly, was it gained from an online test?
I know how “IQ” is measured… it’s all to do with the size of the typeface you’re using
i would say that being an atheist isnt the most intelegent point of view, because it is simply the opposite of believing in god eg. blindly disbelieving something.
however being agnostic is the most logical belief because although an agnostic doesnt believe in god they dont catagotically say god doesnt exist, believing that their is a posibility of somthing that hasnt been proven wrong is a much more intelegent way of thinking about things.
@JC I think you may be telling porkie pies.
Actually, I measure IQ by the people who don’t get into Mensa.
To explain, if you get past the first Mensa test they send you another one with a test fee.
If you solve that puzzle they send you another one with another test fee. It takes about 8 of these tests to prove that possess above average intelligence, whereas a genuinely intelligent person doesn’t need to prove it, and can pocket the subscription fee, in the same way that millionares don’t need a personalised numberplate to prove they’re rich.
Someone is making a healthy profit of insecure muppets.
Melanie, thanks for the youtube link. I’m still laughing at the moustache reasoning at the end of the interview.
You’re welcome
Thought I should highlight, with an actual example, the dangers of blind faith. I love his comment ‘I saw Apollo, man, he’s not looking so good.’ Isn’t it great that you can’t preach this kind of blindness in Britain!
But to take it one step further, can you believe this man believes in Jesus/ God only as a way of edging his bets with what he believe is the stronger side?! As much as the article we are discussing is flawed, you can see the point when you see interviews like this! Interviews that are as mainstream as being shown on Fox news!
When we define atheism as a lack of belief in a god/gods then it is just that, a lack of belief. But there are two definitions people use; the one that’s in dictionaries that I’ve read (‘a belief in no god(s)’), and the one that’s described in several books about the subject (‘a lack of belief in god(s)’). I would call myself an atheist in the sense of a lack of belief, but never in the sense of a belief in no god.
I am quite sure I have heard of studies like this one before. But correlation =/= causation – an example of this would be that perhaps people with high IQs are just more likely to be in an environment where they come into contact with atheistic writings (where the contact with the new ideas is the deciding factor and not the IQ). I don’t think this research is definite
What amuses me is that Derren twittered this and in my list of tweets under it it said ‘The ancient Phoenicians worshipped lettuce’. ‘Nuff said really. Humans a a group tend to want to worship somithing, evidently it doesn’t matter what (gods, cats, sci-fi writers, salad…) Of course humans are contrary creatures too, and individuals will question what everyone else believes and those individuals will most likely be the ones with the better developed capacity to reason, i.e. the more ‘intelligent’. There, can I have my posh job in a uni now?
Pah.
- Write a paper on it and get it peer reviewed and the answers “yes” – Phillis
I’m really intelligent and I’m an atheist – pretty sure that proves it yeah.
Faith is something personal (or at least it should be) and a reflection of personal choice. If intelligence is a measure of how well we are able to rationalise information and form our own beliefs then perhaps people who do prescribe to a specific faith have rationalised the information within that faith and decided that they like the ideas and tenets… I know people who are highly intelligent and are devout Christians because the beliefs etc are appealing to them. Perhaps there are two levels to this argument: at the first level are people who don’t question their faith and the second are people who have made a choice; the latter being those who might be considered more intelligent… incidentally I don’t prescribe to any faith and think it’s all a pile of poo, to be honest
I’m deffo an Afoxnewsist! In the words of the great Partridge, ‘People’, eh? I wish I had half the belief in myself that this guy has in Jesus.
Actually, Fox News does exist unfortunately, but it’s cartoon content I’m questioning.
I am an atheist but I don’t like conclusion people draw from this correlation.
I don’t think you can say anything by comparing people from Ghana and people from Japan and only take IQ and religiosity into account.
Sure it can be a fact that education helps you question religion but, for example, it can also be true that a country where people can’t get an education at all is a more dangerous country to live in and people are more likely to have a need to cling to some religious comfort or something.
http://xkcd.com/552/
And one day, comedy news may be all that’s available. And we will learn to believe that comedy news, because it is set down. By people with motives and agendas. People who wish to control other people. Control countries. Control worlds. Oh, damn, that’s already happened, hasn’t it? I forgot, religion has already been invented.
I is has an IQ of 999 …or was it 666…can´t remember it exactly, sorry!
Einstein believed in God.
or were driven totally against it being forced to go to church as a kid (YUCK!)
Hmmm,
)
*Steps back and bows down to worship JC*
(Sorry, I know… it’s lowest form of wit… but then how can I compare to that!
Don’t worry JC, we all make mistakes. It’s not like we’ll nail you to a cross or anything like that… err… well I wont anyway.
It was possibly an online IQ test… not worth trusting those things.
My one said that I have an IQ of over 140 (which was the highest it gave out)! In all reality I should, perhaps, remove the last digit
You may notice how I’m staying away from the whole ‘main argument’ here, that’s because I choose to.
Worship He-man… he is after-all, a true Master of the Universe (apparently)
Peace People!
If ever you want to question this simply look at any council estate across England, kids who have no hope, adults that act like kids and a whole generation who feel safer in gangs than in there own homes and ask yourself, do they all have super IQ’s? probably not. Do they believe in god? probably not. Studies always seem to have a better outcome when they rely on closed focus groups.
@ JoJo
Hey!
Some of us live in council accomodation due to circumstances beyond our control you know.
We don’t all drag our knuckles around on the floor grunting, drinking white lighning and looking for our next ’slap-happy video’ victim.
But, on the whole, I can see your point.
However, I think you’re possibly in for some retaliation from this lot regarding something along the lines of…
“He didn’t say everyone who is less likely to believe in God (or don’t believe in God) are likely to be more intelligent”… just that people who are more intelligent are less likely to believe in God.
The fact that neolithic heathen’s ‘appear’ to be re-evolving through society is neither here nor there with regards to this ‘argument’.
Peace People
here here@ Mr Woolf! Although we should make he-man take an IQ test just to make sure….
Personally, I don’t believe in any correlation between intellect and faith. And until every person in the world has an IQ test and confirms their faith in one mass collection of data, we won’t be able to prove otherwise. Especially using biased populations and questionable methodology!!
Smile!
How can you research God, how can intelligence help in this ? I’d say .. academics lack imagination .. lack believe .. lack depressed self as long as they are working (it is sort of an escape you see … from their normal self .. ). Some very smart people choose to believe …. has got nothing to do with intelligence .. it’s two different things. Not to be compared. And also .. academics are not necessarily intelligent … or more intelligent. What faculty is also of importance .. it asks for many different ways of using a brain .. Has got nothing to do with religion though .. he did not get that yet, Lynn …. believing is not about knowing facts ..
I belief in myself .. some might not find that so intelligent either but hey … others would find that the smartest thing in life.
Mr Wolf,
Apologies I should have explained firstly that I grew up on a council estate, my brothers and sisters still live on an estate as do plenty of my old school friends. This isn’t a personal attack on anyone from that background more a highlight of that fact that other factors can be attributed to the lack of belief in god, such as an external environment.
@ Melanie
I’m not sure if they’d let him into the testing centre dressed the way he does.
Maybe I should check for him first (he’s quite a busy guy these days, believe it or not)…
All I need is to:
Dig out my body sword holster (No sword, as that’s probably a definite no-no).
Dye my hair Blonde (Oh… what about the stereotyping).
Have a waxing session (I wont go into the differing body shape… too much hassle).
And, of course…
Find my fur underpants (Faux of course).
Arriving saddled up on a rather large pussy might be a bit too far, plus where would I park it?
(Cat btw… don’t be dirty
)
*Ahem*… yes.
Or I could just not… it seems a lot of work.
But I think the new religion idea’s air-tight! Haha.
Now what was the topic about again?
Peace People
@ JoJo
No worries… I appreciate the apology but it’s not needed really. I didn’t mean it to appear as if I had been offended by you.
I do understand completely where you’re coming from, with the point you’re making
I was kind of just ‘getting in there first’ with regards to saying about how the statement/title is focusing specifically on “People with higher IQ’s are less likely to believe in God”… Not so much saying that anyone who doesn’t believe in God must therefore have a higher IQ.
This lot can get very heated/pedantic where either their brain capacity, faith or both are questioned/concerned.
I was trying to make light of the situation before anyone else could get all angry and personal.
I believe you appear to be making the ‘Peace’ sign… respect
Peace People
What is God? Is god like a man who lives somewhere above and makes things like us or is God the highest point of a hierachy? Like the all seeing eye.
I really can’t be biffed arguing atheist or thiest. What I can’t get my head around is what is now? Where is now? What would evrything be like if nothing existed. Could nothing exist? To have nothing there must be something. Those are the questions that get my head racing at 4am. This time and realm we live in we can realize it, but how could you realize nothing? You couldent because you would be realizing something as nothing so therefore nothing would be something……… Ouch!
@ Mr Woolf (or should that be Prince Adam).
I bow down to you. It is clear from everything said that you are, in fact, the real He-man and probably spend most of your time (when not debating religion vs intelligence) defending Eternia and Castle Greyskull. And I think leaving the cat at home would be a bad idea. Fuel has gone up another 2p a litre. Pussy power all the way…. *ahem*
I now renounce all Earth religions in favour of you.
Does that make me stupid?
Smile
@ Melanie, lol
Errr…
You know, Duncan did tell me that I was being too blatant with that post.
Ohhhh… the Souceress will not be pleased with me at all
The whole ‘mission’ might now be at risk.
Fuel prices here are rather high.
The problem with Cringer is he’s a big pussy (in both meanings) and he hates the traffic.
Turning him into Battle-cat creates a whole bunch of other problems with regards to vehicles… I wont go into details, let’s just say no insurance company will cover me for 3rd party damage anymore
There’s no need to bow before me, I’m just a man after all…
Ok perhaps a little bowing (helps the self-esteem) and you may follow me if you so desire, haha.
Peace People!
WELL IM THICK AS PIGSHIT,AND I HAVE ALWAYS QUESTIONED THE VALIDITY OF GODS EXISTENCE,GO FIGURE THAT!
@ Tracey
“I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.” (Albert Einstein, 1954)
This may only be ture because people with a higher IQ find it hard to submit to vunerabiity. They do not like feeling alone or admitting that they need help. The reason in not believing in God, would be because they are afraid of the possibities that it may just concieve.
Believing in God admits that you need someone or something to help you and/or to help lead your life. Something that supposedly intelligent people will not give in to.
Why do people struggle so much with atheist and agnostic? An atheist is someone with an absence of belief in any gods whereas agnosticism is not about belief but knowledge — it describes someone who does not claim to *know* for sure if any gods exist or not. Agnosticism is not, as many assume, a “third way” between atheism and theism. The presence of a belief in a god and the absence of a belief in a god exhaust all of the possibilities. Agnosticism is compatible with both theism and atheism. A person can believe in a god (theism) without claiming to know for sure if that god exists; the result is agnostic theism. On the other hand, a person can disbelieve in gods (atheism) without claiming to know for sure that no gods can or do exist; the result is agnostic atheism.