“A federal judge in Kansas dismissed a lawsuit Thursday by an atheist soldier who claimed his rights were violated because he had to attend events where prayers were said while stationed at Fort Riley.
U.S. District Judge Kathryn Vratil ruled Army Spc. Dustin Chalker failed to exhaust all other alternatives before he and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation sued the Department of Defense in 2008.
The Military Religious Freedom Foundation said Chalker’s case reflected a pattern of religious intolerance and proselytizing by members of the armed forces. Mikey Weinstein, president of the Albuquerque, N.M., foundation, said an appeal of the ruling would be filed with the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver.”
Kansas City (thanks, Tammy)
So in other words you have to fight the whole military before you are allowed to go to the court.
Why on earth does the military in the US force people to go to such events in the first place? Religious services should always be voluntary.
Now we know the US is the most god grazed country in the Western World with their: “God Bless America” so probably some high ranking right wing religious general thinks that all the forces should pray in order to win that war in the Middle East — which we will never win this way.
Go Private keep away from those Services I am with you on this and if I were the judge I would’ve said that the army had no right to obligate anybody in the first place to go to services or prayer.
Too right. That’s like someone suing a airline for serving sandwiches on a flight with no meat in because they weren’t vegetarian.
The more people who promote atheism as a belief system comparable with a religion, the more difficult it’s going to become for rationalists to defend themselves. Atheism is not a thing, it’s the lack of a thing — big difference.
It’s about the equivalent of a white man complaining about being racially discriminated. He has a point, but does it really matter? If he wants to make a point about being atheist, he could just attend the events and remain seated when prayers are said.
There’s really no need to take this silly thing to court, I’ve heard in some parts of America atheists are a minority and actually discriminated against, that sort of thing is worthy of a judge’s time.
(btw, I am atheist myself)
@James Windsor – yes, ha ha, of course it is *exactly* like that. Doh!
He’s not campaigning for the right to hold Atehist Services, but rather not to participate in something that he does not believe in, but is outside the remit of his job. A better analogy would be if all soldiers were forced to attend Republican Party rallies – would his claim be rejected because not being a Republic is not a belief system?
…wth apologies for typos in the above. Struggling with new keyboard.
And what exactly is the ‘thing’ that atheism is lacking? Surely you’re not suggesting that a creation myth is actually a real ‘thing’? Fight the god-botherers. It’s high time they are stopped being allowed to be the ones who shouldn’t be offended by us heathens.
I’m wondering if these ‘events’ were actual religious services, or things like roll call or briefings or such that were opened with prayer.
If the former, I fully agree with him suing, because hey, you don’t force people to attend religious services. If the latter, though, then I suppose it’s sort of like in school — you need to be there for the important part, so either you ignore the religious part or you show up a bit late.
Can’t just go around missing the important part because you don’t like their prayer, and if there’s only a handful of atheist people on the base, I can see why they would be unable or unwilling to hold separate briefings and such.
I agree that everybody’s religious (or non religious) beliefs have to be respected, but this I think is taking it a bit too far. I’d agree with him if he was being forced to attend Mass and the people he was with were Bible-bashing him, but all it says is that he had to attend some events where prayers happened to be said – that could be anything, like a dinner where they said Grace. I’d hardly consider that to be an infringement of someone’s religious rights. Being an atheist, or any other faith, doesn’t mean you have to avoid anything to do with other religions like the plague. Every year, I had to go to a Christmas carol concert with my school, which was held in a church (and I’ve been a pagan since I was 14,) but I didn’t mind, because no one was telling me I had to be Christian – I was just watching a show!
@Berber and Jess, you both have a good point here!
However think about this. When it was for instance a meeting and you had to sit through the closing Prayer, why is there a closing (or opening Prayer) in the first place.
We are talking about the amry here basically a federal organization in my believes religion is not common in the workplace. I never had a meeting (and trust me I worked for many many many companies as a consultant) where people would start or close with a Prayer that is just flat-out insulting for people of an other faith or non-religious. During dinner it is everybody’s own right to pray or not.
IMHO there’s no place for religion on the workfloor. You do that at home or in a Christian/Islam whatever company but not in a stately institution.
@ Mike Hoffman says ‘@James Windsor – yes, ha ha, of course it is *exactly* like that. Doh! He’s not campaigning for the right to hold Atheist Services, but rather not to participate in something that he does not believe in, but is outside the remit of his job.’ Exactly.
Sometimes people have to stick their necks out to make a point and this soldier is doing just that. Most of us just go along with things to keep the peace; sitting through Holy Joe weddings, Christenings and funerals where the priest is more interested in the numerous collections – but what’s wrong in stopping and making people think?
It might not bother me to sit through a few prayers here and there, but it may bother some – especially those in the armed forces who see exactly what this ‘belief system’ (read man-made bollocks) leads to; wars, wars and more wars.
I wish we knew what these ‘events’ were. If it was part of the everyday routine – once in the morning and once at night, and a few times inbetween – then yes, that would be a bit unfair (Religion, as Raymond says, can’t really contribute to business – unless you’re a church.) But if (as the word ‘events’ kind of suggests,) prayers only happened every so often, for special events – maybe for respecting the dead; can’t really think what other use the army could have for prayers – I can’t see why you would sue over something like that. To me, it just sounds like he’s whining that he had to be exposed to anything religious at all.
Thought the US was run by god. Bloody unpatriotic of him. Not as if it was something American either…like ‘suing’.
Belief systems are based on fabrication. There is nothing unique about the Christian story, for example. The story of Jesus is almost identical to that of previous ‘gods’ or ‘prophets’ including Mithras, Horus and Krishna to name only 3. They were all born on or around December 25th, they had 12 disciples, they rose again from the dead after being crucified, etc. As a teenager, I wanted to be a priest. I believed in social inclusion. However, the Catholic faith had become based on the exclusion of large parts of society. To those who believe that this soldier should just accept it, would you go along with being forced to go to a synagogue or mosque because everyone else does? Religion has been at the root of conflict for thousands of years something that ‘believers’ should be ashamed of. This soldier is fighting for his country not ‘God’.
i knew a pagan chaplain (he wrote the pagan chapter fer the army manual) & he never seemed to feel the army was proselytizing. i wonder if things have changed since then? or maybe the army just doesnt like atheists? because they still think “there are no atheists in foxholes”?
Yeah I have got to say, no one’s rights are violated here. If a religious person is not allowed to say prayers, thats a violation of his free speech, and freedom of worship. But the only problem that a rational person should have with standing around saying prayers is that it is a massive waste of time. He does not have a right not to hear things he doesn’t agree with.
The religious beliefs or superstitions of others do *not* need to be respected if they are so arrogant as to be enforcing those beliefs on others.
To the people who claim this soldier was complaining about something he volunteered to do, and therefore is being a crybaby about it:
The relevant thing you are missing is that the military does not claim to be a religious institution. At no point did this soldier volunteer to join a religious group that was advertised as such. He volunteered to join a secular organization that it turns out has been taken over by religious kooks. And according to its official charter it’s explicitly not supposed to be one. The military is not following its own rules, and it’s impossible nowadays to seek proper channels inside the miiltary for pursuing these complaints about that issue – because the people to whom you are supposed to complain are themselves part of the problem now.
I find it interesting that an atheist is willing to put his life on the line at his commander’s order, but not put up with a few minutes of activities that are not in any way harmful to him – and have no significance to him either.
Surely its like telling a Christian to eat pork – Pork has no special significance to Christianity (well as far as I know), and as the army is all about serving and following orders – I don’t see how this task requires someone to sue.
The army by its nature is “regimented”. I understand why attending services is compulsary! If everyone did what they wanted when they wanted, there would be no army as we know it today! This is why they make everyone attend.
I am not saying this is right or wrong … just it is the way it is in the army (at present).
Is this guy suggesting he might be turned Christian?