A debate between Lewis Wolpert and Russell Cowburn in Nov 2009 at Gunnersbury Baptist Church.
What does science tell us about God?
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This debate was the subject of an episode of the radio programme Unbeleivable?, available as a podcast/stream/iTunes from Premier Christian Radio, during which the two protagonists discussed the subject in the studio. There’s also a thread on the Premier Community discussion forum about the programme.
Such worn out, fusty and weak arguments on Cowburn’s side.
I was expecting a debate :/
I think the speaker needs to read the book on Alex the grey parrot, or read the story of the chimp that spent a great deal of time and effort creating strategic piles of stones around his enclosure in order to ambush the people who came to gawk at him.
No one suggests that chimps can reason the same way humans do. The reality is that humans aren’t that special. We have really only a stepwise progression of consciousness, not the great leap that he seems to suggest.
What proof is there that god exists? The whole thing is really annoying.
Looks like I got the link to the Premier discussion thread wrong:
http://www.premiercommunity.org.uk/group/unbelievable/forum/topics/what-does-science-tell-us
(… and misspelled “Unbelievable”)
I found it rather difficult to listen to this “debate”. It basically consisted of a theist scientist saying “God exists because Jesus says so” and an atheist scientist saying “There is no evidence” over and over again. I doubt either debater in this video convinced anyone of anything.
This was really interesting, Prof. Cowburn made some really good points and debated in a reasonable yet faithful way – although I feel maybe he takes the comparison of science and faith a little too far though he himself states that science cannot attempt to explain all things.
Prof. Wolbert on the other hand… I feel he could have attempted to enter a little further into the debate, he didn’t really give up any new or interesting points or ideas, rather he just laid out a few of the old arguments we’ve heard again and again, and kept saying that there is no evidence currently that he beleives.
I have no problem with this being his veiw, I just wonder why he entered into a debate where he really had nothing to say.
Cowburn seemed to do what everyone does who puts religion over science, spend the first part of your argument discrediting science. He mentions how science can’t be used to answer the question of was it right to invade Iraq. Religion can’t be used for that either, maybe he should try psychology to answer that question. I hate how it’s always, well science doesn’t have an answer therefore god exists. The lack of an answer in one system doesn’t not automatically make another valid just cause it feels good.
I suspect that many people will be annoyed by the constant “where is the evidence?” argument. To these people I ask, “is it better to have one good argument, or several annoying pseudo-arguments?”
sooo…what does god tell us about science?
Its hard to dislike Cowburn, as he seems like a reasonable and friendly guy, but his arguments really do not stand up to scrutiny. I just don\’t see how you can be religious and accept Science at the same time. It\’s bizarre.
I am always amazed that there can be scientists who believe in God/Jesus. Frankly I concur with Mr Wolpert, what has God or Jesus brought to this earth in the last 2000 years if all?
How can one believe in a big bang theory and God at the same time? That’s beyond me.
Why isn’t a scientist like Mr Cowburn following Ockham’s razor that Jesus (if existed at all) was indeed a delusional person who made crazy claims of being the son of God. Many of these people are locked away in asylums on a daily bases. No one is deemed to be the returning Messias.
When a kid is 3 y/o he/she believes in an Easter Bunny. When the kid is 8 or older they would say: “Ow yeah, show me the Bunny first mate!” Why doesn’t Cowburn say this? It is the exact same thing.
>What proof is there that god exists?
Where did the Universe come from? Where did your conscious mind come from?
It seems some people must have some sort of explanation to these questions and would rather believe in something – even if it’s nonsense – rather than not know. Proof doesn’t enter into the process. Any answer seems to be better than no answer at all for these people.
Once someone believes something as truth (even if it’s wrong in reality) they hallucinate all sorts of evidence to support it. That’s why people get so worked up when they defend their position, because in their mind, they believe 100% that they are true and correct. Anything to the contrary is dismissed. Just how the mind works, and we all do it to some degree.
My view is that there is not a actual being,man or women of god but having the idea of faith, I have faith. times of hardship,close to death we all have faith or believe in something. and our lives in some way continue. we all do in some way(maybe). we want them to continue or I do, having the thought of whats the point of exsistance why are we here, to me there is a point. havent got a clue what it is but going back to I have faith in what I want to believe that there is something. or not? a vicar said to me once if you ask god for money or to get off drugs/or something, he will not give you money or give you the magic potion to get off drugs, but give you the oppurtunity to do. the idea of that could be a powerful tool for self belief/confidence, what ever we believe or not. its the individaul choice and respect it………………
When you think of science, and science men and women say there is no scientific evidence of god, which theres not. but with saying that it begs the question of the study of the 100th monkey theory, which a amount of science workers believe. the study in the 1950`s is still going strong today or the idea is at least. My point is, does science believe what it wants to see, or can find evidence to fit, confirm or deny the ideas of things. and then put it to the world with out question.. Just a thought??????
@Tim Atyeo says ‘My point is, does science believe what it wants to see, or can find evidence to fit, confirm or deny the ideas of things. and then put it to the world with out question..’
That’s viewing things the totally wrong way around surely? When someone proves a God exists, then science can have a rethink. Science needs to prove or disprove nothing – those who follow religion are the people who need to do that work in the first place. How warped.
I think the “without question” part is the FAIL here. If you don’t question a theory when it’s put out there it’s not science. That’s why everything is peer reviewed. – Phillis
Using your won argument for there must be God as something had to start the universe. where did ‘god’ come from then? You can’t just put a hat on the end of something and say ‘Oh, it was god’ because you don’t know the answer, the world doesn’t work that way.
And what DOES make your religion the right one?
I would also argue that religion can be used for very bad things (terrorism for one) if someone manipulates what is being said, changing the meaning. We’ve all read a text message or email when we’re upset and that has an impact on the way we interpret what’s being said. It all comes down to the person reflecting their own emotions on their interpretation.
I’m still going
You could argue for the existance of god, but it all depends on your definition of god. If you were to define god as being nothing more than a comforting thought for people (because in reality, in your own life, that is all he would actually be) then you could say yes he does exist, for the individual. All the other things associated with god in religious texts have been given to ‘god’ my mans own interpretation of him (or her, or it).
I myself don’t subscribe to a belief in any god, deity, or superpower, I have no need for this comforting thought, but I can respect and understand that other people do.
Therefore, by my own definition of ‘god’ I suppose I have proved his existence, but I myself don’t need that comforing thought =)
fair comment, this is one way to look at things,I have many ways at looking at the world, as we all have our own models of the world our reality is not always “the actual reality” and if you stand on a chair in your own longe your probaly see things differently.what I am saying we as humans take things general without questioning. in my opionen Im not warped in my thinking.I like to push the envelope get people thinking. question, argue, adventure.humour have fun. natural curiosty of humans and their thinking,thoughts on the world. and thoughts on other peoples ideas and thoughts.
@Ateyo, I read that you have faith but not necessarily believe in a supreme being my question is what it is you have faith in, except for your own abilities to control your life? I think you take an exit on a interesting side road. Until now I only have heard people say they have faith in Jesus, God, Mohammed, Allah, an astral being what ever.
Would you mind to explain your vision on faith?
I’ve given up arguing with religious people, let them believe, let them get on with it. Centuries of science have failed to convince them that they’re wrong. A debate won’t either. 100 debates won’t.
The same goes to Scientists as well, the scriptures say don’t argue with fools and God purposely put the message in a way that requires a child like mind to understand. Those great debaters and intellectuals have great difficulty in finding God because of this.
@raymond, good question, made me think. I was brought up to believe in jesus christ and god, my grandfather was a lay preacher we went to church on christmas day, and had to prey to god at bed times.
so my beliefs as a child was there is a god and jesus. and this is were I condradict myself on the one hand the faith I have was instiled with as a child, the belief in god, on the other is my rational side HOW can there be a god wheres the evidence. maybe I say I have faith because of my inner conflicts god vrs no god. so i sit behind the word faith because either side. so is it a copout to seem to sit on the fence till i find the evidence. use the word faith for my own uses. but then you could argue what right do i have to argue. I sat in church when I was 22 and asked god for help, when no-one else to turn to. continue-
@raymond,continue. im 33 now maybe i could argue i was given the oppurtunity to make good. or because I had the feeling of faith in something, I did things myself. so i could now say that maybe its just words and the meaning we as individuals give them that gives us the power and not an actual supreme being or ? I now think that I have internal battle for and against, which might last some time. I dont think ive cleared up the issues on my vision on faith but confused the issues more. fun finding out.
What interests me is that some of the questions from the floor are asked by invisible beings. I think this itself proves that there is something supernatural in our world. I’m surprised that neither of the speakers pick up on it.
I also think that its unfair that this is taking place in a church. That’s geographically biased. It should be taking place in a Leisure Centre. Or a car dealership.
A long long time ago, nothing exploded and formed the earth, then it rained for millions and millions of years, and the rocks cooled, then…slowly, over millions of more years the rocks turned to you