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	<title>Comments on: Chief scientist who questioned evolution theory fired</title>
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	<link>http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2010/10/chief-scientist-questioned-evolution-theory-fired/</link>
	<description>The official Derren Brown Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Berber Anna</title>
		<link>http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2010/10/chief-scientist-questioned-evolution-theory-fired/#comment-68738</link>
		<dc:creator>Berber Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2010 23:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/?p=14305#comment-68738</guid>
		<description>BobBuilder, if debunked means that upon a 2008 repeat of the original experiment, MORE amino acids were produced, then I suppose it has been debunked. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14966-volcanic-lightning-may-have-sparked-life-on-earth.html?feedId=online-news_rss20

Also, way to respond to part of my comment and ignore the rest of it. Whatever the origin of the chemicals described, I still find it logically sound that given a few millennia, they&#039;ll recombine in every possible way -- including one producing a self-replicating molecule.

What&#039;s your evidence for a humanlike intelligence creating everything, apart from ancient Middle Eastern mythology (written, I might add, by humans)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BobBuilder, if debunked means that upon a 2008 repeat of the original experiment, MORE amino acids were produced, then I suppose it has been debunked. <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14966-volcanic-lightning-may-have-sparked-life-on-earth.html?feedId=online-news_rss20" rel="nofollow">http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14966-volcanic-lightning-may-have-sparked-life-on-earth.html?feedId=online-news_rss20</a></p>
<p>Also, way to respond to part of my comment and ignore the rest of it. Whatever the origin of the chemicals described, I still find it logically sound that given a few millennia, they&#8217;ll recombine in every possible way &#8212; including one producing a self-replicating molecule.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s your evidence for a humanlike intelligence creating everything, apart from ancient Middle Eastern mythology (written, I might add, by humans)?</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2010/10/chief-scientist-questioned-evolution-theory-fired/#comment-68228</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Oct 2010 20:37:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/?p=14305#comment-68228</guid>
		<description>@BobBuilder

I don&#039;t think you have yet grasped the point that there is no distinction between speciation and the emergence of new phyla. New phyla are simply examples of speciation that occurred so long ago that the modern descendents of the daughter species (two daughter species per speciation event) have now diversified so much as to be unrecognisable through simple observation, requiring more in depth techniques such as comparative anatomy or phylogenetics to establish relatedness.

Simple example, the closest living relative to baleen whales (possibly toothed whales too, but I&#039;d need to check) is the hippo. There are snakes with legs, and there are legless lizards. Fairly substantial mophological changes take a good deal of time of course, but are certainly possible in the order of a few million years. 

The notion of Kinds is somewhat specious unless you define it, so please do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@BobBuilder</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think you have yet grasped the point that there is no distinction between speciation and the emergence of new phyla. New phyla are simply examples of speciation that occurred so long ago that the modern descendents of the daughter species (two daughter species per speciation event) have now diversified so much as to be unrecognisable through simple observation, requiring more in depth techniques such as comparative anatomy or phylogenetics to establish relatedness.</p>
<p>Simple example, the closest living relative to baleen whales (possibly toothed whales too, but I&#8217;d need to check) is the hippo. There are snakes with legs, and there are legless lizards. Fairly substantial mophological changes take a good deal of time of course, but are certainly possible in the order of a few million years. </p>
<p>The notion of Kinds is somewhat specious unless you define it, so please do.</p>
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		<title>By: BobBuilder</title>
		<link>http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2010/10/chief-scientist-questioned-evolution-theory-fired/#comment-68209</link>
		<dc:creator>BobBuilder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Oct 2010 15:10:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/?p=14305#comment-68209</guid>
		<description>Sorry, this really will be my last post... :-)
@Berber Anna
The experiment you refer to with the electrical current and primordial soup producing amino acids has been widely debunked and is not considered a strong argument in evolutionist circles

@Skimble
What leads you to say that the events were in the wrong order? All of your concerns are clearly addressed here: http://www.whyevolution.com/Accuracy%20in%20Genesis.pdf (see page 5 - 11). I am busy going through the links you sent me because I know my knowledge is limited. I hope you will give me the benefit of the doubt and do the same ;-) Genesis is plausible &amp; confirmed by current understanding of astronomy etc, the other creation myths are not - at least all those that I have read (pls let me know if you&#039;ve found a reasonable one)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, this really will be my last post&#8230; <img src='http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
@Berber Anna<br />
The experiment you refer to with the electrical current and primordial soup producing amino acids has been widely debunked and is not considered a strong argument in evolutionist circles</p>
<p>@Skimble<br />
What leads you to say that the events were in the wrong order? All of your concerns are clearly addressed here: <a href="http://www.whyevolution.com/Accuracy%20in%20Genesis.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.whyevolution.com/Accuracy%20in%20Genesis.pdf</a> (see page 5 &#8211; 11). I am busy going through the links you sent me because I know my knowledge is limited. I hope you will give me the benefit of the doubt and do the same <img src='http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  Genesis is plausible &amp; confirmed by current understanding of astronomy etc, the other creation myths are not &#8211; at least all those that I have read (pls let me know if you&#8217;ve found a reasonable one)</p>
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		<title>By: Skimble</title>
		<link>http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2010/10/chief-scientist-questioned-evolution-theory-fired/#comment-67875</link>
		<dc:creator>Skimble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Oct 2010 20:07:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/?p=14305#comment-67875</guid>
		<description>BobBuilder: The bible&#039;s account of the creation is only &#039;rational and accurate&#039; if you take it as a metaphor (given what we know about the age of the earth, it was not created in six actual &#039;days&#039;) and even then it gets some of the events in the wrong order!

It&#039;s exactly as credible as any other creation myth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BobBuilder: The bible&#8217;s account of the creation is only &#8216;rational and accurate&#8217; if you take it as a metaphor (given what we know about the age of the earth, it was not created in six actual &#8216;days&#8217;) and even then it gets some of the events in the wrong order!</p>
<p>It&#8217;s exactly as credible as any other creation myth.</p>
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		<title>By: Berber Anna</title>
		<link>http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2010/10/chief-scientist-questioned-evolution-theory-fired/#comment-67866</link>
		<dc:creator>Berber Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/?p=14305#comment-67866</guid>
		<description>The whole idea somewhat resembles the experiment Derren shows in The System, when he produces ten consecutive &#039;heads&#039; in a series of coin tosses -- by tossing the coin hundreds of times. Ten heads in a row is unlikely on your first try, but given enough time, it becomes almost inevitable.

Self-replicating molecules are a rare and unlikely occurrence, but given an unimaginable stretch of time, all possible combinations of amino acids will eventually occur, the self-replicating molecule among them.

Personally, I find the concept of an intelligent, humanlike creator far more outlandish than that of spontaneous recombination of chemicals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The whole idea somewhat resembles the experiment Derren shows in The System, when he produces ten consecutive &#8216;heads&#8217; in a series of coin tosses &#8212; by tossing the coin hundreds of times. Ten heads in a row is unlikely on your first try, but given enough time, it becomes almost inevitable.</p>
<p>Self-replicating molecules are a rare and unlikely occurrence, but given an unimaginable stretch of time, all possible combinations of amino acids will eventually occur, the self-replicating molecule among them.</p>
<p>Personally, I find the concept of an intelligent, humanlike creator far more outlandish than that of spontaneous recombination of chemicals.</p>
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		<title>By: Berber Anna</title>
		<link>http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2010/10/chief-scientist-questioned-evolution-theory-fired/#comment-67865</link>
		<dc:creator>Berber Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:47:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/?p=14305#comment-67865</guid>
		<description>Oh, so intelligence only needs a creator if it is temporal, not if it is eternal. I disagree on the creator concept, but I get where you&#039;re coming from.

On the DNA issue, there is a slightly simpler mechanism of course, RNA, although the viruses that use RNA as a primary information carrier are not technically alive. In any case, experiments have shown that running an electrical current through a mix of chemicals that resembles the seas on the early Earth does produce amino acids. the building blocks from which RNA and DNA are formed.

I don&#039;t find it that inconceivable that given enough time (and this is on a scale of billions of years), eventually a random reaction between amino acids resulted in a self-replicating molecule, which was then refined by natural selection.

(cont. below)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, so intelligence only needs a creator if it is temporal, not if it is eternal. I disagree on the creator concept, but I get where you&#8217;re coming from.</p>
<p>On the DNA issue, there is a slightly simpler mechanism of course, RNA, although the viruses that use RNA as a primary information carrier are not technically alive. In any case, experiments have shown that running an electrical current through a mix of chemicals that resembles the seas on the early Earth does produce amino acids. the building blocks from which RNA and DNA are formed.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t find it that inconceivable that given enough time (and this is on a scale of billions of years), eventually a random reaction between amino acids resulted in a self-replicating molecule, which was then refined by natural selection.</p>
<p>(cont. below)</p>
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		<title>By: BobBuilder</title>
		<link>http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2010/10/chief-scientist-questioned-evolution-theory-fired/#comment-67853</link>
		<dc:creator>BobBuilder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Oct 2010 11:05:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/?p=14305#comment-67853</guid>
		<description>@Skimble
Yes, I do realise we are unlikely to observe phylum branch points even if we accept evolution as the vehicle. To me it was more the mental exercise of trying to see how it might be possible based on what we do know and can observe. I will read the links you&#039;ve posted, so please excuse me for a while from this discussion.

As to why I believe the biblical account: It offers a reasonable and rational explanation that is not contradicted by observable science. Historical deductive science is obviously open to subjective interpretation of the facts. If the bible told me that the earth rested on the back of an elephant, then I would also dismiss it as twaddle, but curiously for those who&#039;ve read it, it doesn&#039;t. Likewise Norse mythology etc doesn&#039;t offer a remotely satisfying answer...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Skimble<br />
Yes, I do realise we are unlikely to observe phylum branch points even if we accept evolution as the vehicle. To me it was more the mental exercise of trying to see how it might be possible based on what we do know and can observe. I will read the links you&#8217;ve posted, so please excuse me for a while from this discussion.</p>
<p>As to why I believe the biblical account: It offers a reasonable and rational explanation that is not contradicted by observable science. Historical deductive science is obviously open to subjective interpretation of the facts. If the bible told me that the earth rested on the back of an elephant, then I would also dismiss it as twaddle, but curiously for those who&#8217;ve read it, it doesn&#8217;t. Likewise Norse mythology etc doesn&#8217;t offer a remotely satisfying answer&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: BobBuilder</title>
		<link>http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2010/10/chief-scientist-questioned-evolution-theory-fired/#comment-67852</link>
		<dc:creator>BobBuilder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/?p=14305#comment-67852</guid>
		<description>@Berber Anna
To answer the question: Who created God? Well God is eternal so by definition He is uncreated because the concept &quot;beginning&quot; has no meaning on an infinite time scale (this I say for the point of illustration - there was no time scale to begin with. God created space-time in the beginning before continuing with physical matter. It is interesting to note that God is described variously in scripture as &quot;light&quot; (1 John 1:5) and &quot;power&quot; (Ps 65:6) and therefore based on e=mc2, the creation of physical mass from &quot;nothing&quot; becomes trivial for God.

There is a lot written on the subject and I won&#039;t pretend to be an expert or have all the answers. Take a look at this: http://www.whyevolution.com/Accuracy%20in%20Genesis.pdf (don&#039;t agree with everything, but it&#039;s a good effort)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Berber Anna<br />
To answer the question: Who created God? Well God is eternal so by definition He is uncreated because the concept &#8220;beginning&#8221; has no meaning on an infinite time scale (this I say for the point of illustration &#8211; there was no time scale to begin with. God created space-time in the beginning before continuing with physical matter. It is interesting to note that God is described variously in scripture as &#8220;light&#8221; (1 John 1:5) and &#8220;power&#8221; (Ps 65:6) and therefore based on e=mc2, the creation of physical mass from &#8220;nothing&#8221; becomes trivial for God.</p>
<p>There is a lot written on the subject and I won&#8217;t pretend to be an expert or have all the answers. Take a look at this: <a href="http://www.whyevolution.com/Accuracy%20in%20Genesis.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.whyevolution.com/Accuracy%20in%20Genesis.pdf</a> (don&#8217;t agree with everything, but it&#8217;s a good effort)</p>
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		<title>By: BobBuilder</title>
		<link>http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2010/10/chief-scientist-questioned-evolution-theory-fired/#comment-67847</link>
		<dc:creator>BobBuilder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Oct 2010 08:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/?p=14305#comment-67847</guid>
		<description>@ Berber Anna
I think you misunderstood me, apologies for not being clearer. I didn&#039;t say that you needed a modern PC to process 0&#039;s and 1&#039;s. I said, by analogy, that I find the processor/carrier of the information even more ingenious than the information itself. In the same way I marvel at the genius of the DNA mechanism just as much as the information the mechanism carries. It doesn&#039;t matter how far back we go - it had to either be the same mechanism present in the &quot;common ancestor&quot; for it to branch to all descendants or it was created that way in all  creatures. It doesn&#039;t (in fact can&#039;t) explain away it&#039;s brilliance. To ascribe this brilliance to random chance just seems to me more of a stretch than ascribing it to a creator.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Berber Anna<br />
I think you misunderstood me, apologies for not being clearer. I didn&#8217;t say that you needed a modern PC to process 0&#8242;s and 1&#8242;s. I said, by analogy, that I find the processor/carrier of the information even more ingenious than the information itself. In the same way I marvel at the genius of the DNA mechanism just as much as the information the mechanism carries. It doesn&#8217;t matter how far back we go &#8211; it had to either be the same mechanism present in the &#8220;common ancestor&#8221; for it to branch to all descendants or it was created that way in all  creatures. It doesn&#8217;t (in fact can&#8217;t) explain away it&#8217;s brilliance. To ascribe this brilliance to random chance just seems to me more of a stretch than ascribing it to a creator.</p>
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		<title>By: Skimble</title>
		<link>http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2010/10/chief-scientist-questioned-evolution-theory-fired/#comment-67797</link>
		<dc:creator>Skimble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Oct 2010 22:43:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/?p=14305#comment-67797</guid>
		<description>BobBuilder: Thanks for not dismissing what I said out of hand.

The fact is that the evidence shows all modern species DID arise from an original ancestor. Evolution is just the name we&#039;ve given to the series of events that best explains this, and other, observations. Expecting to see phylum branch points in a population of slow-breeding animal within the course of human history is unrealistic; on that basis it&#039;s no wonder we have not directly observed such an event.

As to the bible providing the whys? Well, it&#039;s certainly AN answer, among myriad religions and philosophies, with no evidence to back it up. Why should I treat the answers in the bible any more seriously than the &#039;answers&#039; given in Norse mythology? 

I&#039;d rather stick with objectively determinable facts, thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BobBuilder: Thanks for not dismissing what I said out of hand.</p>
<p>The fact is that the evidence shows all modern species DID arise from an original ancestor. Evolution is just the name we&#8217;ve given to the series of events that best explains this, and other, observations. Expecting to see phylum branch points in a population of slow-breeding animal within the course of human history is unrealistic; on that basis it&#8217;s no wonder we have not directly observed such an event.</p>
<p>As to the bible providing the whys? Well, it&#8217;s certainly AN answer, among myriad religions and philosophies, with no evidence to back it up. Why should I treat the answers in the bible any more seriously than the &#8216;answers&#8217; given in Norse mythology? </p>
<p>I&#8217;d rather stick with objectively determinable facts, thanks.</p>
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