Belief and non-Belief
The other night, I met with an old friend and his class of sixth formers who had come from Bristol to London on what I affectionately remember as one of those ‘English trips’. Sat with Roland, another teacher and the delightful group after a play, his colleague asked what I was up to, and I mentioned the documentaries I had been making. I explained that they followed your blogger spending a week with persons making paranormal claims to observe and question and see whether said claims hold up. Perhaps sensing my scepticism, the younger teacher asked, “So do people astral travel?”
“Well, it looks unlikely”, I answered. “It’s quite an easy thing to test: if people feel they’re floating up to the ceiling and looking down on themselves, you can put something up on a high shelf and see if they can identify it. Invariably they can’t. However, there are psychological states which can create that sort of illusory feeling, so it’s more likely to be something auto-suggestive”.
She replied: “Well, I don’t believe that”.
Roland gave me a look of delighted expectancy, and I figured courtesy took precedence over inquiring exactly what she meant by that comment.
Nietzsche made the point well that we equate truth with what we merely want to believe, which, as he continued behind his sensational moustaches, is an insult to the very idea of truth. Here we have a woman, who I presume ‘believes’ in astral travel, asking for information, and then rejecting it when it doesn’t fit with the belief she has in place. There is an interesting conundrum here. Science moves forward by changing its views based on observation. A learning machine, it wants to be shown to be wrong, so that it can dispassionately correct itself and advance. It looks for what’s reliable, what holds up, searches for the bit that makes something work and shakes off unhelpful clutter. That’s why, as Tim Minchin (in his great song Storm) and John Diamond (in Snake Oil and Other Preoccupations) point out, that ‘alternative medicine’, when shown to work, becomes ‘medicine’. Willow root does work as a pain-killer; so scientists have helpfully worked out what the effective part of willow root is that does the job, have re-produced it, and called it aspirin. Science is about insatiable curiosity for how things work; yet open your mouth and offer a scientific explanation and you are without pause chastened, abased, cowed and subdued as if an honest spirit of inquiry were tantamount to hanging ones member in their pale organic ginseng infusions.
This is surely to do with tone. Science has to be done dispassionately, as its aim is to step outside of personal beliefs and see as best as possible what’s actually going on. But we do not instinctively warm to bloodless reason, preferring the emotional appeal of heartfelt opinion, and it is hard for a scientific explanation to entice the imagination with colour and easy mystery. Of course, the reality is that science gives us far richer colours and much deeper mystery than our hopeless brains can fathom, which is most probably why so many make up such shallow fantasies in their place which, in their vacuousness, are easier to grasp.
The scientific community (traditionally unassuming, bearded and softly-spoken) is at long last managing to communicate more effectively, by learning to use the very ‘spin’ that has for so long allowed pseudo-science to be soaked up by the media. Sense About Science is making important moves in bringing science out of the cabinet. That scientific ‘tone’, that can seem to joyless and reductionist to those who don’t see that beneath it lies knowledge far more genuinely enlightening than talk of psychic ability can ever be, is hopefully slowly shifting, as science learns how to communicate in a touchy-feely world where it has fallen out of fashion and food-scares and genetic hysteria have caused many to distrust it.
Interestingly, one very passionate voice to come from the scientific community has led to derision from both sides. Richard Dawkins has for decades, written beautifully on science. Anyone who feels that to not believe in the supernatural is to live an empty, meaningless life should find the time to read Unweaving the Rainbow, which opens with the words:
“We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here.”
When The God Delusion emerged, it was a new, rallying cry and a platform was established. Dawkins’ unapologetic tone, borne from his frustration at how reason has to ‘tip-toe quietly from the room’ whenever religion is mentioned, made sure this frustration was loudly heard. Since then, some atheists less vocal have been embarrassed by what they saw as an evolutionary biologist writing too passionately, outside of his area, and ultimately with a tone they did not share. People who have never read the book believe it to be a mad rant, which it is not. It’s thorough and well-argued, even if you don’t agree with it: the only crime I can see is that he pokes his head above the parapet, and in Britain more than anywhere, you’re likely to get an arrow through your head for such being so bold.
Also, those who enjoy sounding clever like to say that atheism is another form of fundamentalism. Now, anything can be communicated rudely, and lord knows there’s plenty of rudeness around, especially upon and within the discussion fora of Her Majesty’s Internet. But this sanctimonious, trite and flatulent proclamation should be heard as a request for a firm smack. Atheism is simply not happening to believe in God. It is not a belief system in itself. I also do not believe in the tooth-fairy, but that does not make me an anti-tooth-fairy fundamentalist. I may be accused of insensitivity towards your faith in the nocturnal fang-bandit, but the point is I not have a belief. The confusion arises because believers in the extraordinary presume that it is up to the non-believer to disprove the claims of the believers. This is a mistake: I do not have to prove that the tooth-fairy does not exist – the onus for evidence is upon you, the believer. If you want me to take your claim seriously that he/she does exist, then I’m going to ask to see some fairy-poo. Aside from the fact that no-one can ever prove a negative, i.e. that something does not exist – it’s simply up to the person making the claim to offer the evidence. When this gets confused, the fact that an atheist cannot ever offer ‘proof’ of his lack of belief, can sound to the believers as if he’s just living out another sort of faith.
Due primarily to Dawkins’ book, the discussion is now a popular one, and people find themselves not only taking sides, but defending their belief or lack of it. This is not a bad thing, for in that discussion, reason may tip-toe back into the room again. But in such debates, opinions can become heated, tempers lost, and little exchange of understanding happens. Both sides can spout rhetoric in order to score points.
When I was a Christian, we were often told the importance of living exemplary lives: that by being likeable people, we would have a better chance of spreading the Word. Despite hearing this labeled revoltingly as ‘Friendship Evangelism’, the point is an important one. We respond very positively to kindness and likeability (a simple fact lost to many NLPers who obsess over ‘rapport techniques’ and become alienating characters in the process). A rational explanation, or request for evidence, might seem a bitter pill to those that have their identity wrapped up in belief; a little sugar in the mix is so important. If one attacks, one is simply not accepting the person as a human being, who will have sufficient evidence, according to her yardstick, for believing in whatever she chooses to. And in denying that person’s humanity, one rather belittles ones own. There is a place for Dawkins’ bothered incredulity, certainly when dealing with public figures, but for the rest of us, an ability to engage is hugely important. Scepticism, after all, is about honest questioning; a spirit of engagement. Many call themselves sceptics, but are in fact cynics, refusing to engage or accept evidence at any level.
In that tightly secured, permanently guarded area, both these cynics and the astral projectors wander in the same circles, fingers in ears, whistling.
“The scientific community (traditionally unassuming, bearded and softly-spoken)” There he goes about ladies’ facial hair again!
I find the quote about the young female teacher at the start of the post so funny, the fact that she asked for his opinion/information and dismissed it when it didn’t match what she believed in the first place!
I just saw the topic of the post and the looong text and the only thing I thought was “Derren was here…”
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Another good read, and as usual, very well said. Ta.
Hi Derren. Almost sure you never read comments, but thank you for destroying all my beliefs with all your shows and book Tricks of mind. I am almost during year without all this irrational beliefs and I am feeling cooler than ever!
AZ
I can understand your perspective and your points are so logical and coherent. (excuse my poor writing, English was not my mother tongue, although that should not be an excuse.)
I am a Christian and I do think it is healthy to question and test what you stand for and believe. I don’t think I am walking around with my fingers in my ears whistling. Regardless of the fact that I can not whistle to save my life, I do think I make an “effort” to listen to other people’s perspectives or at least engage in discussion.
Moreover I do not particularly think I have changed my personality to become a more “likeable” person. I who I am , flaws and all. If I like someone its genuine, if I don’t, then that person will know about it.
I don’t shove my faith down anyone’s throat, and I admit I don’t have all the answers.
I respect your thoughts but at the end of the day I do think that everyone is entitled to having a personal opinion. You are entitled to yours as I am mine.
However, I really do admire all the work you do in “de-bunking” so called psychics. I think it really helps people who are vulnerable to manipulation.
Regards
Diana
p.s Let the stoning commence…….lol
You do have beliefs … it drives most people .. but what is it in your case, you belief in …
I wish you something paranormal happening to yourself … , stuff you can not explain from reason … for research … I’ll ask around .. to see who is willing to see to you … hehehe …
I think questioning what is presented to you is always healthy, this includes religion, belivers and non believers but this “she is a believer but dismissed the info because it didnt coincide with her beliefs” can work both ways for people who believe in something and for those who dont.
Oh thank goodness for thoughtful and reasoned discourse.
My flatmate (who is hoping to be a clinical psychologist – part of which will be challenging patients irrational beliefs/thinking patterns) had me screaming with frustration the other week.
I had been trying to get her to read “Trick of the Mind” for ages as the chapters on ‘bad thinking and pseudo science’ were exactly in line with her dissertation experiment which was about the placebo effect. She never did read it and I suggested recently that she try and read it again as we had been talking about alternative medicines (she’s a big believer and has a stock pile of herbal remedies as well as going to acupuncture, reiki, chiropracty etc. etc. etc.
The response ” I don’t want to read it as he has totally opposite views and I’m not interested in reading something that will challenge my belief as my belief helps me” !!!!!!!! Aaaaaarrrrrrgggghghghghh!!!
Oh and she also thinks that Derren is really psychic and he’s just pretending he’s not to make more money!? (She’s only half joking about that one)
Amazingly well said, Derren. I wish you’d come by and philosophize/rant/reason more often.
‘We respond very positively to kindness and likeability (a simple fact lost to many NLPers who obsess over ‘rapport techniques’ and become alienating characters in the process). A rational explanation, or request for evidence, might seem a bitter pill to those that have their identity wrapped up in belief; a little sugar in the mix is so important. If one attacks, one is simply not accepting the person as a human being, who will have sufficient evidence, according to her yardstick, for believing in whatever she chooses to. And in denying that person’s humanity, one rather belittles ones own. There is a place for Dawkins’ bothered incredulity, certainly when dealing with public figures, but for the rest of us, an ability to engage is hugely important. Scepticism, after all, is about honest questioning; a spirit of engagement. Many call themselves sceptics, but are in fact cynics, refusing to engage or accept evidence at any level.’
The above paragraph, for me, was the most poignant part of the post. A poetic, and truthful ending to a very sensitive subject.
Well said Diana, You put it exceptionally well, people are allowed to believe in what they want BOTH SIDES of the arguement- for want of a better word, who cares if people believe in Christianity, buddhism, Islam, scientology even- if people want to believe in things- thats their life choice, we are all INDIVIDUALS, but sometimes coming to this blog you wouldnt think so. SERIOUSLY ATHEISTS- GET OVER IT- it is like you are all trying to change the world by “spreading the word”- jsut get on with your OWN lives -quit worrying about others- life is too short and if you think once you are dead-you are dead then you guys need to take the “get on with your own lives” more to heart that anybody else.
Also Derren, dont mention it about your 125 birthday wishes, they always say Pisceans can be rude- funnily enough they usually are LOL- who says astrology is all phooey? lol
Actually, many, many years ago, I did see a docu about someone who could “astral travel” and they did the experiment where they put something on a very high shelf to see if the person could name what was on the shelf. When the experiment was over the person who “astral travelled” did actually name the object on the shelf. Of course, the scientists who were conducting the experiment simply put it down to “coincidence”. That is the perfect example of a non believer who will not entertain any kind of “proof” and pooh-pooh everything that doesn’t fit in with their beliefs. I didnt really see the point of the experiment because it was a lose-lose situation for the “astral traveller” and I’m sure the scientists knew that even before the experiment took place. They set the experiment yet they still didnt accept the findings as anything other than coincidence. What result DID they want? I could try and find something about this on the internet but as the docu was many years ago Im not sure I could find anything Ill look later.
Thank you Derren. When we are surrounded by media full of half-truths, trivia and nonsense it is such a pleasure to read something clear, honest and so full of sense.
On the point about Dawkins manner, I think there is room in the world for both the Dawkins and the Derren approach. Atheists need someone who will stand up and make a noise as otherwise it is far to easy for those with a belief to simply overlook non-believers or to perhaps make incorrect assumptions about their ideas and opinions.
On the personal level though, I would definitely go with the Derren softly softly approach. People do respond to you better if you are friendly, cheerful and helpful and are more likely to listen and think about what you say if you don’t shove it down their throats. I have one particular friend who has taken in and believed much of the Daily Mail type reporting of danger immunisations, miracle alternative medicines, etc, and has on occasions over the past few years taken her children to homeopathic practitioners rather than the doctor when she has been worried about their health. I am continuously applying the softly softly approach to her whenever the subject of health arises by asking questions and providing alternative suggestions (alternative not ‘alternative’) to the ideas she has, trying where possible to back them up with scientific evidence or pointing her in the direction of reliable information. I am hoping that eventually this approach will pay off and I think I may be getting to the point now where she actively seeks my opinion on such matters. It’s only taken 6 years so far!
Note: I have an unassuming and softly-spoken but non-bearded scientific degree and it was rather nice being the only female on the course.
I understand how you say that it is not possible to prove a negative. Nobody HAS to believe in a higher being, whether it is God or the Tooth Fairy (bow down and worship her!), but maybe it is this idea that we have no choice but to believe in a life saviour that is the problem. And therefore you are maybe right when more information has to be on offer in an unbiased way… people out there may need it in order to be set free.
Why would people come to believe in something religious in the first place? There has to be careful wording at just the right time. Either love and comfort for the people who really need it, or psychological trickery promoted as the Will Of God (Derren, your show ‘Messiah’ was a good example of that).
Now the psychological tricks are easy enough to explain (athiest: WTF was that!?! Jesus… only explanation is that God exists). All it is is self-image conversion. What I want to dwell on is the love factor. Read on…
When we are kids, we are loved. Always. Even if discipline is around, we know we are always always always loved. ‘Unconditional love’ is the right term for this. It is simply this:
‘There is nothing you can do that will make me love you any more, and there is nothing you can do that will make me love you any less.’
Now if you think about that for even a minute (stop reading if this gets uncomfortable by the way) what do you have to feel bad about in a situation like that? You cannot do anything to get more love because that implies that some of it is held back, and nothing you do will make the person who loves you love you less. Just WHAT can you do in order to change it? Nothing. That’s the whole point – it is unconditional. No conditions, no judgements and no expectations.
However, as we grow up, doesn’t this love get less obvious? Don’t you receive different treatments because you are no longer the ‘beautiful, young boy/girl’ now that you are a ‘teenager learning to ‘cope’ with life’? It is interesting. Maybe nearly all the depression in the world comes from us THINKING we’ve lost this love which is now conditioned some way (behave, grow up, stop acting like a teenage dirtbag, keep your head up in life and bear it because love won’t get you through it…..).
If you aren’t sure how powerful unconditional love can be, just imagine a situation that makes you angry or sad. Now imagine that same situation… only the person who loves you unconditionally has his/her arms wrapped around you facing whatever you are looking at (whether it be your partner, parents, friends, God, a hero of yours). Try to imagine that situation now and try to beat yourself up about it. Try to call yourself a bad person. Try to say that you’ve got to change yourself somehow…
It isn’t as easy when you are comfortable in the idea that no matter what you think, feel, behave, belief or commit to, you’ll be loved all the same, isn’t it?
Now let’s tie this into the idea of belief and religion. Religion gets most of its strength from FILLING that void of lost love. If somebody told you to believe in God to save you from your pain when you have family, friends, and many others who love you lots, you’d laugh. But if you truly, truly felt alone in the world and that nobody really gives a shit about you, it’d be understandably hard for you not to consider it.
Hasn’t anyone actually asked why the ‘belief creator’ part of the brain exists in the first place? Well, consider this. Let’s say you are born in the early stages of evolution where dinosaurs were still roaming the Earth. If you were to walk up to one of them for the first time you wouldn’t be scared – after all, you haven’t a clue what a dinosaur looks like, sounds like, feels like, smells like or tastes like. Let’s say that dinosaur attacked you and you barely got out alive. If you came across a second dinosaur, WHY ON EARTH would your brain say the dinosaur was safe AGAIN? It’s ridiculous.
That gives a reasonable explanation as to why beliefs are formed better under emotional impact. There are evolutionary ties to it. Beliefs exist as part of a human being IN ORDER TO KEEP US SAFE.
So why, then, would a brain that truly believes in a higher power for love and security suddenly say ‘oh I can live without this belief’ so easily? According to the brain, that is the same as putting yourself in a pit of horrible emotions when you know fine well they are dangerous… same with a pit of dinosaurs and that dinosaur who bit you a little too hard.
So Derren… I ask that you don’t bash believers for contradicting themselves like that despite how amusing you may find it. They may be holding true to their beliefs irrationally because their brain is not able to cope without it…
Does anyone know the popular line from House M.D. ? ‘Everybody lies.’ This is what actor Hugh Laurie says as the witty, cynical Doctor House whenever presented with human dilemmas. He is in essence, right. However, I would like to take this a stage further and say:
‘Everybody is a hypocrite.’
Yep. That is what I think. Everybody is a hypocrite. Even me. If you examine why beliefs exist at all then you’ll see that at some point we have to contradict ourselves in order to keep ourselves safe…
But the good news is, that means there is no shame in it! So for goodness sake, if we want to stop this ‘war’ of science vs religion vs anything else then start being a little kinder to each other. We may find that we would then all have the strength to ask if we need our beliefs from the past any longer…
Now Derren, I love your art, but sometimes I don’t like the way you talk about the hypocricy of believers. I am not saying there is anything wrong with judging… it is just… if you are open to new ideas about what is out there, then wouldn’t you consider being more mature when it comes to people who contradict themselves? You promote it as if it’s something to laugh at. Well, that’s how I see it. So surely there are others who are going to end up laughing. I don’t see that as helping this whole situation. I see it as immaturity… nothing personal.
To point out, by the way, it is impossible for anybody to be 100% open-minded. If that were true, you could walk off a cliff and not believe you’ll fall to the ground. So stop fighting over believing, not believing, contradicting, not contradicting, or anything else of the matter. We are making things worse. There is NOTHING wrong with ANYBODY.
I really like the idea of me loving myself unconditionally. I personally find it helps my situation instead of making it worse. I learned that from loving myself no more and no less and not dependant on anything I do in life, I have greater answers for the problems I may come across. No higher being. No truth. Not even my psychological knowledge. Just me and the love that life has given me. Nothing else.
And isn’t that enough?
I may consider reading Richard Dawkins books such as The God Delusion (from what you’ve shown me about Unweiving The Rainbow, that sounds really enjoyable). I have a feeling my prejudging of belief ‘attackers’ is just the same as athiests looking upon ‘. So I apologize in advance if this is the case. I will seek to try and love as many people as I can, regardless of how their logic or illogic works.
Now on a brief note on NLP – it does form some of my Psychological knowledge. However, do not think for one second that I believe those exaggerated claims such as eye movement. I only study from the people who are good at it and put it to REAL use. My main two teachers (heh, I guess you can call them that) are Paul McKenna and Michael Neill. It isn’t enough to get involved with NLP. You have to learn from the people who are good at it. Derren, I know you don’t like NLP but I advice you read what Michael’s ideas are before you completely detest it forever (I’m assuming you’ve already looked at Paul’s work). He does not add more fuel to the self-inflicting fire the way most self-help ‘experts’ do. He teaches people that there is genuinely nothing wrong with them just like I’ve said above, and that happiness is not dependant on getting what they want. And there is also no ‘psychological techniques’ per se – just experiments for people to play with and see what works. If after reading, say, ‘You Can Have What You Want’, you still feel that NLP is destined to be exaggerated and commercially based, then by all means feel free to think little of it in the future. My point is, NLP is not doomed to pyramid schemes. I think you’ll be impressed by how incredible this guy really is and that maybe love has a role in putting people at peace with beliefs.
I’m sorry if this post is long lol, but I hope it has given people something to think about.
dear mr. brown,
could you define believer (in religion)? what exactly do i have to believe in to be considered a believer? i would call myself a christian, but i am not sure i could be called a believer.
i’d be thankful for a definition.
respectfully,
christine
I never understood the ‘fingers in ears’ mentality, the not looking beyond your belief system thing. I do understand how people will freeze up and respond angrily when challenged cynically, though. If somebody laughs at my interpretation of the truth, tells me condescendingly that awww, poor little me would be on THEIR side of the issue if only I thought about it some more, or knew what they knew — then yes, I’ll drag my heels and spit fire right back at them. Whether it’s for new-age beliefs (which I had until only a few years back) or for skepticism. However, show me proof of your position, explain to me calmly what it is that I’m missing, and I may yet see the error of my ways. If I see actual proof of paranormal ability (proof =/= anecdotes, though), I’ll accept it gladly. Because, well, it’d be cool.
The reason I eventually abandoned the new age/psionics thing was that every time I’d try to ask about testing the ‘energy’ which was supposedly at the heart of everything paranormal (I wanted to see if it was measurable, a known form of energy, electromagnetism or whatever), I’d get chastised for it. ‘Some things are outside the realm of science, and science should not attempt to understand them.’ What? No… science is HOW we understand things. Untested ‘facts’ aren’t facts, they’re just convictions. And convictions aren’t enough for me to base my worldview on.
Besides, NOT believing in a higher power makes the world so much MORE beautiful to me. I remember five years ago, at a festival in Germany, I looked up at the sky. I could see the Milky Way. I looked out at space, and I realized that I’m just a tiny, walking bit of a tiny little planet in a huge universe. And that this existence of mine is all just a huge coincidence. And to me, that felt incredible. The chances of me, just me, existing are so extremely tiny — I’m really lucky to be here. And if I’m only going to be here once, I’d better make the most of it — have as much fun as I can, gather as much knowledge as I can, do everything I want to do. I’m not going to get another chance at it, after all.
You are a beautiful and horrible person, on the inside.
Most scientists, at least publicly, are rather lacking in the qualities that make a person an electable politician (as an American, I know how the all-to-recent successes of George Walker Bush illustrate how gravely useless those qualities are in a pinch).
Just as strippers (strippers? come on, guy, you are fairly famous, don’t dress badly, and don’t have an obvious deformities), as with the rest of us, have hairs on the back of our hands, most of us have other senses we aren’t generally fully conscious of the scope of (a wide range of allergies leaves me, sometimes, smell-blind, or anosmic) and, similarly, there are things we just get used to.
Anyway, I thought you were just good at your art and dedicated to it until you describe (on Channel 4, viewed by me via youtube) your Florentine room! Magnificent.
You are a few months my elder. Would love to hang out sometime. No real rush, but we are mortal.
It’s an interesting distinction to make – that difference between what’s appropriate in public debate and what’s appropriate in private interactions. I’m happily atheistic but most of my family and many of my friends are believers in some form of God. And it’s not a problem. We usually don’t talk about our differing beliefs, but when we do it’s with respect and genuine interest in the other viewpoint. My family and friends would never try to convert me to their religion and I would never try to talk them out of it.
But I’m very grateful that there are people like Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens taking the approach they do in public, and especially political, discourse. While it’s entirely appropriate in context, my quiet and respectful disagreement isn’t likely to, for example, help make policymakers aware that some of the people they represent don’t believe in God.
It’s the vocal, sometimes abrasive, atheist scientists, philosophers, and authors that I thank for a world in which the new U.S. President actually acknowledges non-believers in his inaugural address. They help us all to move forward in that arena and I hope that in a small way I do my part to help move us forward on an interpersonal level.
To me it appears that the problem is simply one of desire, as the Buddha head so happily reminded us. We all attach to ideas we have about our selves and our functional truths in the world, largely oblivious to the fact that we commonly relearn that these things change, and the mnemonic ideas of meaning and exposition in the world must be adjusted or abandoned to account for change/life. As you wrote, we get our ideas of the world bound up the ideas of ourselves/egos; I am a Christian, I am a Muslim, I am an Chef, I am getting hungry, I think I want Thai food…mmm. These are all bound up into the here and now ideas and desires of how I see myself in the world. To someone with loosely investigated, yet highly praised, methods of interpreting the world, to look to close is a threat, as it could (not will) undo themselves with few apparent options beneath their precarious selves.
It seems to me that it is more pertinent to make people aware of the limitations of their own perspectives, and the consequences that bears on how to understand and question themselves, and their own minds. For example, if I pointed to a length of something silvery, flat, and with a scoop at the end, most people would call that a spoon. But its not a spoon. There is no such thing as a spoon. A spoon is nothing more then a mnemonic peg for which to hang your understanding of what we quickly refer to as a spoon. More appropriately, it is an arrangement of particle-wave forms (normal matter does have a wave form, its just barely there) oscillating in a manner to keep ridged cohesion, reflecting and bending light, that at one point was in the nuclear furnace of a star, and has existed since the first Plank moment of time. The mnemonic peg of the spoon, which consists of its shape, texture, taste, basic properties, and weight, is tied to its contextual meaning; eating dinner to most, peering around corners for spies…and maybe pirates.
Its like trying to describe a sunset. No matter how detailed, or fitting the words, it simply is what it is, and only the experience of it can define it, no approximation would ever do it justice. Yet instead of a sunset, many religious people will pile in ‘all the good stuff and the unknown’ and slap a sticker on that anthropomorphized, pleasure-infused meta-lump and call it God.
This understanding is what made me realize how frivolous it was to get mad at another person or thing. To get mad was the same as getting angry at myself, as any person I sense is only ever a subjective approximation of that person represented in my own mind and senses. Its like getting angry at a painting of a person instead of the person, when its the same paint and canvas you use to paint someone else and feel happy about them! In the end, your just getting happy or angry at paint. Also, if I feel angry instead of bring alert, clear headed and mindful, it does nothing to appropriately assist solving the cause of my discomfort, and evokes a mind state that increases stress, mortality factors, and stupidity (short sighted), let alone physical discomfort.
I think it would be largely beneficial if there was a public return to the age old axiom “Know Thyself”, as written above the temple of Delphine. This, with an generally accepted encouragement for curiosity regarding mental investigation, could really help a lot of people figure things out on their own without public embarrassment, but a public push of some sort would be required I think…peer pressure is a useful social hack 😉
So long, and thanks for all the fish.
-S
The most inspirational quality of Derren Brown is not his ingenius ability to entertain but rather his profound respect for truth, something we all can and should aspire to.
yeah i saw posted by derren too and i was like wow – derrens back yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Interesting post though, always wondered if we really did wander about in our sleep.
x
Derren Brown, Lone Voice of Reason
Have you thought of acquiring a subtitle? Just planting seeds…
It’s so nice to hear from someone who actually thinks honestly and humanely, and as a result, overwhelmingly clearly by the way. *Phew :-0
Sally BM, “Insert Suitably Witty Yet Still Endearing Subtitle Here”
My Oxford Advanced learner’s dictionnary might be wrong…but it says that Atheism is “the belief that God doesn’t exist”.
So it IS a belief in a way, just as Christians believe in God, Atheists believe they are plain wrong.
If I understand correctly what you (Derren) mean, you think that you are an Atheist until you’re proven wrong, that you are open to it but, still, you start with the thought that God does not exist.
Well I personnaly am an Agnostic and my “starting point” is to say that nobody’s right and nobody’s wrong…but that it is still strange to be part of those two categories (Beleiver and Atheist) and consider that you are right because…well you might as well be wrong.
The conclusion to that is, whether you are a Believer in God or you don’t or you claim your uncertainty (Agnosticism), the bottom line is not to be radical about it or, at least, not force anything on anyone.
You, Mr Brown, Sir, are a bigger man than I. Thus I salute you.
@Elise
Good point, I think it all depends on what kind of athesit you are…
It sounds Ridiculous but my sister always describes me as a Catholic atheist… I think that, if you are raised surrounded by religion in a society seeped in religious dogma then you are more likely to be a little ‘militant’ in your atheism, mostly because you come up against little battles all of the time (I used to work in a place where everyone had to stop working for the Angelus at 12noon (and our national tv station – RTE still stops programmes for the ‘bongs’)
I think we can all become a little blinkered, in no other area of life do I feel the need to argue down someone elses viewpoint to the same degree, I suppose its all about context and much of the tendancy to attack is bred from frustration…
Not saying that attacking an individual and their beliefs is the right thing to do (no matter how tempting it is), but certainly it is often an understandable reaction. Its not actaully about the individual and what they want to believe, but is rather about a larger structure that gives their beliefs a societial support system, importance and structure that seems unreasonable…
If any of that made any sense at all….
Goody, that was quite a read…and a good one…
I guess making eachother aware and tolerance upto individual boundaries are the key to alot of good things…
thanx
Thanks for this post, Derren. The more chances most people have to encounter rational and reasonable ideas the sooner society can move away from delusions and towards an appreciation of reality.
I enjoyed the uncut interview on RD.net between you and Dawkins as well.
Keep up the good work.
Siobhan – I think you come closest to my position on all this. I am atheist, and in normal situations I don’t feel the urge to steamroll anyone else’s strongly held beliefs. However I’m so accustomed to having religious types attempt to force their belief and lifestyle on me ( I attract evangelists like a magnet… perhaps because I look like their idea of Beelzebub), I do find myself loosing patience with it from time to time. Religions aren’t always someone’s privately held conviction… they speak for other people who don’t subscribe and lobby governments around the world on behalf of the masses on many key issues.
As an ex-christian myself I know that part of the doctrine tells believers to go out and convert and to foist their moral code on others, no matter how arbitary and reactionary that moral code is (and the Old Testament especially gives licence for some pretty cranky morality which is adopted verbatim by some sects).
That would be my problem with it.
Mass-debate over religion…
Good post DVB Sir…
Also… at the risk of making myself unpopular… perhaps some beliefs, some systems that people choose to measure their behaviour and guide their lives are just wrong and should be vehemenantly challenged?
Okay, so its not up to me individually to decide whats right and whats wrong but if I was talking to someone whose beliefs were inherently sexist or racist or whatever, and were completely opposed to my own, if I thought that the belief that they held was damaging or dangerous, then I would challenge them with vigour verging on, if not overtaking, the line between challenge and attack.
They might have evidence for what they believe, as measured by their own yardstick, but does that mean they are entitled to continue that belief if it clearly needs to be corrected?
I’m aware that I am postulating here, not having by any means the moral authority to decide what is right, or what needs to be corrected, and the question above isn’t really a rhetorical one… where is the line between what we know to be a more dianoetic measure of the ‘correctness’ or substantiability of what we believe and the right of the individual to hold any particular belief?
Of course, I can’t (and wouldn’t persume to) force anyone to believe what I believe, but a dialogue around ‘why’ we believe and why some of these beliefs are more sacrosanct certainly is, at the least, interesting.
Or perhaps I’m just rambling about nothing… which is a very real possibility also 🙂
Siobhan: I completely agree. Think I could wear the Catholic atheist tag too. When you are brought up so totally surrounded by all the dogma it takes a long time to fight your way out, not necessarily in your own head but from the society that supports it and expects you to accept it too.
For some interesting definitions of 3 types of atheists see: http://40yearoldatheist.com/three-crucial-things-you-must-know-before-challenging-an-atheists-unbelief/2008/10/. I’m definitely a Category 3.
Elise: I consider myself an agnostic as well, though with a slight bias towards the atheistic side of things. However, to me, it seems very different to believe in a certain something, than to not believe in anything.
I mean, say I tell you I have an invisible friend that only I can communicate with, and you say that you think I should see a doctor about that. I don’t think that my claim of an invisible friends suddenly makes you someone who BELIEVES I do not have said friend. It’s more of an assumption, a status-quo thing. Not believing what you cannot observe is, to me, not a belief in and of itself. Rather, it is a lack of belief, in the absence of proof.
Belief, to me, signifies an idea that you’re willing to entertain despite not having proof that it IS true, not the opposite of that. You can’t really say that ‘there’s no proof that there is NO God’, because you can’t conclusively prove an absence of something like that. The burden of proof falls upon those that claim something exists. Otherwise, you could say I BELIEVE in the absence of millions of things that have not (yet) been proven to exist — which would be a rather massive sort of belief, when all I’m doing is to say ‘prove it, first’.
Hope that made sense…
Thanks for that link Katherine… yep I’m a Cat3 then… I do like to be catigorise-able! 🙂
Berber anna – I assume you’re alluding to Bertrand Russell’s Teapot there…
To paraphrase Russell: let’s say there is a teapot orbiting the sun at a distance of 20,000 miles. It’s too small to see through any telescope and no space probe can reach it or locate it. But you can’t disprove the teapot… therefore there is a good chance it exists. Except in the absence of hard evidence to the contrary it’s a much safer bet to say “I just made up the teapot in my head, so if it did actually exist it would be a staggeringly unlikely co-incidence”.
If you apply that logic to god, the burden of proof lies heavily on the believer.
Katherine: I think there should be another type, because I don’t quite fit into any of those 3…
I was raised by atheist/agnostic parents, but from when I was about 5 years old, I started to explore religion myself. I had an old children’s bible, a really beautiful turn-of-the-century book that once had belonged to my great-grandmother. I loved those stories, so I decided to be Christian. That lasted about a year, until my grandmother took me to church and I was scared by the mean things the preacher said (don’t even remember what it was, just that it made me cry). After that, I had a strange phase where I talked to the trees by my school, brought them gifts (like pretty flowers, or boats I made out of leaves) and asked them for favors. Kind of my own personal nature religion. I also believed in witchcraft and magic, because those were just really damn cool things to believe in. Then, after my favorite grandfather died when I was 9, I started to read a lot about spirits, the afterlife and near-death experiences, which led me to develop a belief in light-beings and spirit guides. Now, when I really wanted things to go my way, I’d ‘pray’ to my grandfather’s spirit. That lasted well into my teens. At the same time, I used to buy and read conspiracy theory magazines, and I started to believe in aliens and ‘psionic’ powers, as well. When I was 17, I got a new classmate who was also into the new-age paranormal thing, and we teamed up to practice telepathy, empathy and telekinesis (also known as inadvertent cold reading and ideomotor effect… *grins*). At that time, I’d gradually abandoned my belief in spirits and beings of light, and mainly just believed in a universal energy and human paranormal ability. In my early twenties, I started listening to neopagan bands, and flirted with my own version of neopaganism for a while (a version based on Heinlein novels, no less — I believed that Gods existed because human thought created them).
However, these last few years, I’ve been getting into my old childhood hobby of magic again, and in researching that, I also learned a lot about the nature of the human mind, about magical thinking and fooling yourself. Couple that with the fact that I have always looked at the scientific method as the best way of proving things, while my new-age acquaintances refused to set foot NEAR anything sciencey, and gradually I turned into a skeptic and an agnostic/atheist.
Which would make me both category 1 and 3, or neither… the little sheep that strayed but found the path again, I suppose? Though that sounds altogether too Christian, I think. *grins*
Inspiring as always Derren, you’ve reinforced my “faith” (PUN!!!) in science and skepticism once again. Just one minor complaint; “our hopeless brains.” Wouldn’t expect this from you Derren! But I know you didn’t mean it 🙂 hehe
xoxo
I’d be a category three too. I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school and so on and, like Berber Anna, I had a New Age phase too while wrestling with atheism.
I certainly try my very hardest not to be an evangelical atheist but if someone wants to start a discussion I’d rather explain my position and reasoning than just listen impassively. I have no problem with other people holding a religious belief. It’s not up to me to persuade a devout christian that there is no god – it’s really none of my business. I’d never seek out a christian (or hindu, or mulim, or jew, or druid etc etc) in order to persuade them that they were wrong. What gets my goat is the “fingers in ears, whistling” mentality Derren describes in this post. I honestly don’t think that the majority of atheists are guilty of this – it’s just that when we’re drawn into a religious discussion it’s difficult to enter into a completely circular argument.
That was really good I expecially liked the 11th paragraph down. He should write another book. I like how he puts things, its generally what i’ve already excepted as a non believer but it just sounds better when he says it.
I have some food for thought…………….
How does someone measure the intangiable? If you can’t see or feel something does it mean it does not exist?
Also, what about modern day medical miracles? There have been cases documented by licensed, professional doctors, classifying a patient recovery as a “miracle.” No scientific possible explanation is viable. I know that in the U.S, several different doctors have to review the information and ALL of them have to agree, before a case can be classified a ‘miracle.” Extremely rare, but true.
How about true deep Love? Just because someone has not been in deep love, does that mean it does not exist? Can it be “proven”?
Science does not have all the answers……………….
Science does not have all the answers……………
Google has all the answers………………..
Science has all the questions……………….
What if Google crashed?….. then we’d really be screwed. LOL ;P
“I’m going to ask to see some fairy-poo” Haha!
Great post Mr B. 🙂
Diana:
If I cannot see or feel something, and its existence cannot be proven any other way (I cannot see or feel molecules, but electron microscopes can show me they exist), I will assume it’s not there, until I receive proof that it is. That doesn’t mean it is NOT there, just that my default mode is to not believe in something until it is proven to be there. Seems the most logical way of viewing the world.
Medical ‘miracles’, to me, aren’t proof of the existence of a deity, but rather of the flexibility and versatility of the human body. Some people’s bodies manage to defeat HIV. After much research, it was found that this is because of a mutation that dates back to the times of the plague epidemic (the plague bacteria attack immune cells in a similar way to HIV). Some people’s bodies manage to defeat other ‘incurable’ infections, or regrow nerve cells when most people’s bodies cannot. It is likely that some genetic mutation makes their bodies just that little bit different. That’s how natural selection works. In a few millennia, maybe all humans will have those mutations, because they aid survival.
If a deity WERE responsible for ‘miracle cures’, by the way, I’d consider it a very cruel deity indeed. Why cure a random few, and leave others to suffer and die? If that’s the act of an omipotent deity, which could supposedly cure anyone it wished to, it’d be a bit mean, don’t you think?
As for love, it’s a great feeling. It’s caused by a mixture of hormones, such as endorphins, oxytocin and adrenalin, producing changes in the body and brain. Those changes are perfectly measurable using fMRI, and I suppose some bloodwork would show the hormones responsible.
Yes, I know I love my family and friends because oxytocin ‘told’ my brain to feel that way. Knowing the cause does not lessen the feeling… it just means that I know the mechanics behind it.
Science has never pretended to have all the answers. Science is a way to FIND answers. If all answers had been found (which seems rather impossible, as there is an almost infinite number of questions out there), there’d be no need for science anymore.
I think what you mean is that not all answers should be sought after, because mysteries do have a certain appeal as well. I understand that sentiment, but I do not agree to it. I like answers, quite frankly.
Berber Anna,
Please don’t be offended. I wish I did not post my thoughts or that you would have overlooked my post, so I would not have had to respond. I’m not lazy, just extremely over worked to the point I can’t think or will at least need to hibernate for the next six months. I guess I am to blame here.
Alas, you responded to my post. Which I appreciate. Which in turn requires a response. I don’t think this is the right forum to go into great detail about my beliefs, or how I have investigated the bible from a historical stand point.
However, you make your points very clear. I think anyone with any clout could make an argument either for or against. After all, what are lawyers good for?
In regards to having a “default mode†of not believing in something until it is proven, sounds very logical. However rather a “boxed in†mode of thinking. Am I therefore “illogical†for believing in something that scientifically has not been proven? I think it all depends on your viewpoint. Which is why I presume you are an atheist and I am not. We have different mind sets. Yes, you may believe your way of thinking is the “most logical†but is it necessarily the best for all peoples, races, and cultures. The beauty of mankind is that we all are created equal and through our experiences come to have differing mind sets and view points. Should we all think alike? Some of the greatest minds who were able to still think rationally and logically, Albert Einstein, Newton, also believed in the existence of God. They were scientists, yet still believed in the unknown, the “unproven.†I think where you and I differ are our “default mode†of viewing the world.
In regards to the medical miracles, it can be argued either for or against. However, to save me some time, I may agree with you on that one. It COULD be a deity or it could just be the magnificence of the human body, (which I believe has to have a creator, once again, only my view point)
Lastly but definitely not least, love. Sadly, I have never really been deeply in love, I think. I am fairly young so I still have plenty of time for a broken heart. Believe me, I know the mechanics and the wonderful effects of Oxytocin, not because I am a drug addict, but due to the nature of what I have to study. I still can’t quite understand why we fall in love with only certain people, if a hormone was in “control†should we not fall in love as easily with anyone, if the hormone levels are right? If that was the case, then you could “shoot me up“ , and next thing you know I will be reciting poetry to the man next to me in line at the supermarket. However I question whether Oxytocin will “tell†your brain to sacrifice something for your loved ones, even go one further, offer up your life, for the person you love. It is a natural human response to want to preserve and protect your own life, “survival of the fittest.†You will be going against every natural human instinct of self preservation, all in the name of a hormone? It may be a possibility, but only just that.
In some respects I may be a sentimental fool, however I like answers too. That is where I can agree with you wholeheartedly. What I like about Derren Brown is that he seems a genuine person who talks about things that really make you think. He may be the only man on British TV that actually has something interesting to say. Even though I do not agree with him on everything. Searching for answers is a good thing, although as two different individuals we come to two different answers. I believe in God, you don’t, we just have to agree to disagree.
In regards to finding answers, I actually intend to not only read The God Delusion but I will also read the books written in response to that, which include The Dawkins Delusion, and apparently some impressive essays written by Marilynne Robinson, Terry Eagleton and H. Allen Orr. All refute Dawkins, so once again, you can argue either for or against something. Your viewpoint will decide which side you take.
I now intend on finding the nearest cave and hibernating for the next six months. I bid you good day.
First let me say that atheist originally means “a-theist”; a non-believer: http://www.2think.org/hii/atheism.shtml
So Derren’s definition was technically correct. But I don’t think Dawkins uses it like that. He does imply that there is a negative belief present if I remember correctly, with varying degrees of certainty. According to the categorization in Dawkins’ book, I wasn’t able to consider myself 100% atheist, but I have no trouble defining myself as a 100% non-believer.
Other than that many commentators already raised many good points. Perhaps introducing the cognitive dissonance concept is also sensible:
“Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon which refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation. It therefore occurs when there is a need to accommodate new ideas, and it may be necessary for it to develop so that we become “open” to them.”
Just google it for more…
Now… about the part related to science. I disagree with the amazing Derren Brown a bit about that part. He makes an excellent point about the science vs. pseudoscience thingy, yet once again I’m frightened by the full trust in today’s scientific authorities. I also share many views with “Sense about Science”, it is a necessary, praiseworthy effort. But it again is uncritical of the mainstream science itself. They are critical of the peer-review system to a degree, and they acknowledge that published/accepted science is not necessarily the best of the best and that the scientists are not necessarily unbiased, but they still don’t really encourage skepticism towards the mainstream science. Perhaps that’s simply because their focus is more about communication with the public, and to reduce the uncertainty in the air, yet this lack of skepticism towards mainstream science remains a widely unrecognized, unaddressed problem.
Perhaps what I’m talking about is only important in rare, exceptional situations, but still it is a very important issue I think, and should not be forgotten or ignored. Here you can find a lot of info about the flaws of the current system and the advantages of Open-Access Journals, it’s like Peer Review 2.0 in a way:
http://www.scientificjournals.org/index.php
Finally, related to what I just said, ‘Berber Anna’ touched the “HIV” subject above. I really wish I could ignore that, but I feel the need to speak out. Because after some extensive research I became what’s usually referred by the “scientific” community as an “AIDS denialist”. You can find a more objective definition of it here: http://www.reviewingaids.com/awiki/index.php/Dissident
Anyway, Anna, I just want to say that the CCR5-Δ32 mutation theory for the “Long-Term Non-Progressors” is just an unreliable assumption, it’s hold on tightly so that they can explain the phenomenon of “HIV positives” who don’t get “AIDS”. Believe it or not there are much better explanations. There are also enough non-progressors without the CCR5 mutation, but the “scientific” community prefers to ignore that. They actually ignore long term non-progressors as a whole most of the time, they don’t even want to know if all LTNPs have the CCR5 mutation. We could use some sense about science with things like that too… Sorry for off-topic. But anyway, I still agree that the human body is very flexible and versatile. I just didn’t like your example. 🙂 If you’re interested in learning more about “HIV/AIDS skepticism” I often post related information on my blog(s).
What an interesting read this discussion is. Thank’s for the tip on the essays written in respons to The God Delusion. They could be worth looking into once I’ve read the book. Still wondering about love… The hormones is how it happens, but why then and there? Is that due to the smell of his sweat and the fact that he looks like my dad? I bet there is loads of stuff written on the subject. Gonna find something online and read it while I crunch on my breakfast muffin.
(atheist, in case you wondered)
I understand that if someone makes the statement “ALL atheist are like extreme religious people” or “atheism is another form of fundamentalism” which implies the same as all atheist are also fundamentalists, that this not only feels wrong but that it is wrong. But I think that one cannot look past the fact that there are atheists that view their ‘non-belief’ in the same extreme as extreme religious people view their ‘belief”.
Idem dito science. I said it before and I will say it again. There is a difference between the scientific method (trial and error, observation) and science as we know it.
It is wrong and not based on facts that science is just another way to practice religion. BUT again SOME people DO use science in the same way as some extreme religious people. Those people will also NO longer use the scientific method but will hide their fears behind ‘science’ and ‘numbers’ that usually (because it is only a cover up) wont mean anything.
I will repeat, I am not saying that ALL people who use numbers or science to state something use it in this way, but I have seen people who use it in the same radical way.
I do agree that it is just blatantly wrong to make a generalization of it, but that doesn’t make the statement ‘some people use science in the same way as extreme religious people’ or ‘some people use atheism in the same radical way as extreme religious people’ not less true.
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