New Bus Campaign
Had a delightful evening in the company of atheist heavyweights R Dawkins (on great form) and AC Grayling (I hadn’t met him before but love his work: he is particularly delightful in the flesh), as well as David Baddiel, who is always such a bright, switched-on pleasure. For anyone who came along to the Foyles event, I hope you enjoyed it, and apologies for rambling on too long about magic structure when I got asked a question.
Dinner after the event yielded the fact that a new atheist bus campaign is being kicked off. Araine, an organiser of the Foyles evening, a Guardian columist and the editor/driving force behind the Atheists’s Guide to Christmas (on our reading list of course), is behind the bus campaign too. Quite a claim to fame, and the sweetest, least imposing lady you could meet. The campaign focusses one unpleasant aspect of proselytising to children: the resultant labelling of tiny kids as ‘Christian’, ‘Muslim’ etc, in a way that we would never do with, say, political affiliations (labelling a small child ‘Conservative’, for example, seems very wrong). ‘Atheist’ is of course also included as an equally regrettable label to be attached to a child: the message is, to allow children to choose for themselves when they are old enough to decide.
Her column on the campaign is here.
The BBC story on the subject is here.
DBx
I have no problem with my kids being taught about religion but I do have a problem with labelling so great idea. x
A very good message!!
In the hearts and minds of children their parents are immortal beings of unequal strength and power, they practically are gods. And when someone like that tells them(for example) that islam is wrong and christianity is right then those kids are going to believe that.
Thats a huge difference between an adult looking at a religion and choosing to join it.
I would never push anything as important as a belief system on any child, in my mind its no better then teaching a child that one political party is better then another, its no better then teaching a child that one race is better then another.
Id like to see a house hold where one child is indoctrinated and one isnt and see what happens over a 20 year period. Or one being indoctrinated into islam and the other christian.
Too bad so many parents will not wish to see it this way as they really think they are doing it the right way by tutoring their kids in what serves theirselves so well, forgetting about why and since when it served them so well, based on what etc.
What if your child wants to be part of your religion, I just asked myself. Will you take it the same way as with e.g. sex (only for adults)? That area is not always that well developped when it comes to tuturing their kids either. What will you do with your prayers at the dinner table ? And so many more of those things. Is it easy to do, not label your child with your own religious insights and such? Those are just a few things parents who are busy with this will think about too I guess. The problems in this area that might arise.
From Hell to Jocelyn … I truely wonder how people still can believe in the concept of Hell, or Heaven.
Are you even for real? Or are you just posing as the opponent here? Don’t bother to answer if you ever read this. But mind your words .. keep it to yourself and don’t say others go to hell just because they don’t think like you. No, it’s not the bible who says that, it is you who agrees with what the bible according to you says and therefor it is truely you who ssays to a lot of people .. go to hell. That’s your responsibility, seeing that you are responsible for your words ..
I’m sure I will meet you once in that so called Hell … what’s in a face … your heaven might be hell as well towards so many others. And vice versa.
Keep seeing the world, not just heaven, the hereafter. Your childeren need to live in this world.
Alpha Course taught in schools…
http://www.secularism.org.uk/howalphaisbrainwashingkidsinours.html
What is the advert trying to say, that parents shouldn’t be allowed to teach their children anything? Then who should?
this seems like a fantastic campaign, hopefully it will get a lot of support. Would have loved to have an evening with Richard Dawkins, AC Grayling, and of course Derren! It’s like my fantasy dinner party!
I have a education in early childhood education and worked in in home day care. Children are not so much ‘labeled’ / forced, as they parrot the information around them. If a child’s parent are a one belief the children will follow because of the simply fact is molding and referencing parents , teachers and other authorities around them is the way they learn at that age before the ability to decide on the child’s own develops.
So I see this campaign as being a little off, I believe in education the adults so the children are exposed to the facts in interactions with parents and teachers would have more bases.
(hoping it translates correctly over the Atlantic)
What harm does it do to raise a child to be ‘Christian’ or ‘Muslim’ if you are? When they are old enough to choose, they can simply say they do not believe in it – no harm done. But there are important things during a child’s life that are done if they are religious. Why do you people care so much about what others want to do?
It’s an interesting campaign this one and it’s good to see it is sparking a lively debate.
I was christened in the Church of Scotland, we attended church every few weeks when I was younger. At school we said a prayer before lunch (thank you for the world so sweet, thank you for the food we eat…), we had assemblies every week and occasional visits from various local ministers. Religion wasn’t ‘practised’ as such at home and when I pretty much stopped going to church when I was about 13 there was no argument or big discussion.
I now declare myself to be athiest but I will happily go to church for weddings, christenings and funerals and I go at christmas with mum and dad. I sing along to the hyms, I’m nice to the minister and I don’t feel conflicted in that as it may not be my cup of tea but I accept that for others it is.
/cont
does anyone seriosuly label a child as christian or whatever? i don’t think this really happens in the uk. this isn’t the deep south of america!
ps in holland no one even joins a religion in name alone until they are adult.
/cont
I don’t see this campaign as being about stopping parents imparting their beliefs to their children (that’s how the parent/child relationships work with all knowledge and if a parent really believes in their religion of course they are going to think that it’s the right thing to do).
I think it’s more about raising awareness that they should (nor should others) not define everything a child is/does by their belief system. They should allow discussion on other idealogies as the child questions things and the child should not be punished or made to feel gulity and isolated if they then choose to follow a different belief path.
The most important thing for me was that I had parents who brought me up using the knowledge they had but realised I was independent from them. Exposure to their religion therefore did me no harm.
I think that there is some confusion as to the point of the campaign. From my understanding, the message is not: ‘educating kids about specific religious, political of philosophical ideas is wrong and bad’ but more about how we label the children brought up by parents with specific religious, political or philosophical ideas. Just because a child has Christian parents who teach it about God and the Bible and Christian ideas, that is no reason to describe it as a ‘Christian Child”. The kid may well grow up and continue holding those beliefs but they may also come to different conclusions and it is only when they are old enough to make up their own minds that we should label them as Christian- until that point they are just a child of Christian parents. We should all be defined by who we are- not who are parents are.
I recently had me some off-spring. I was happy to see this advert and quite wanted to print it off and stick it in my mother in law’s face.
She told me if my baby (her grandson) were to die in the near future, he’d suffer an eternity in hell because he’s not been christened.
I said my baby has done nothing wrong – born without sin etc – and if there is a hell, there’s no place for him in it.
How can people put faith in a God which they believe would send perfectly sweet and innocent unchristened babies to hell?
It depends how parents wield the religion really. I think some religious frameworks can help steer children as they develop morally, but equally it can restrain kids as they develop mentally/emotionally/academically.
The only thing that I force on my baby is the occasional dance to Sigur Ros…
Wonder how well it will do in Glasgow with the football stuff.
>What harm does it do to raise a child to be ‘Christian’ or ‘Muslim’ if you are?
Yeah, I mean it’s not like anything bad has ever been done in the name of God. Would removing part of a child’s genitals in the name of God count as “harm”?
>When they are old enough to choose, they can simply say they do not believe in it – no harm done.
Children are indoctrinated into religion. They believe in God, as they believe in Santa Claus. The difference is that the latter belief is taken away from them at a certain age, while the other continues to become a huge part of their lives. Yes, they can “walk away from it”, but at the age when they can make this decision, they’re unable to question their belief because it’s been forced upon them from birth.
Oh, and if you think “there’s no harm” in feeding your children your own beliefs, do a search for “Prussian Blue”.
Prussian Blue is an American musical group consisting of two twin sisters who have been performing since the age of 11. Their music caters to a white supremacist audience and, were it not due to ill-health, would still be performing in 2009, at the age of 17.
The pair reached a level of notoriety in the UK due to a Louis Theroux documentary in 2002. Louis asked the girls questions which they could not answer, as they did fully understand their own beliefs. They’d been clearly brain-washed by their mother.
But it’s OK, right? Because when a parent tells their kid about God (and I note that it’s very rarely the God of the Old Testament), it’s only nice stuff about heaven and angels…
It’s a shame the principal remains.
That is a brilliant idea. My data form at schl still says i’m a christian on it even tho i havn’t ever really been 1!
think it is a good idea not to label people whether it is their religion or mental health status!! ….i am a christian (came to it after some very hard times in my life like being widowed very suddenly) and that feels right for me, but also think richard dawkins is a really great man and amazing scientist who can really present scientific stuff to anyone and who was also my tutor at university a long time ago and made a great impression on me that i should start thinking for myself instead of just following other people’s ideas!
also think lovely derren brown is the greatest as well at what he does…..and i would never expect that my grown up children would be labelled as anything because they are quite capable to making their own minds up
This is merely more atheist propaganda as Richard Dawkins wonders whether there is occasion for “society stepping in†and hopes that such efforts “might lead children to choose no religion at all.†Dawkins also supports the atheist summer camp “Camp Quest.â€
Phillip Pullman states the following about his “fictional†books for children, “I don’t think I’m writing fantasy. I think I’m writing realism. My books are psychologically real.†But what does he really write about? As he has admitted, “My books are about killing God†and “I’m trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief.â€
More evidence here:
http://atheismisdead.blogspot.com/2009/11/deceptive-manipulative-propagandist.html
Yet again, atheists are collecting “amazing sums†during a time of worldwide recession not in order to help anyone in real material need but in order to at
Every year we get new figures regarding the decline in church attendance so I am curious why people such as Richard Dawkins seems to be spending so much time, energy and money opposing something which influences such a relatively small number of people in the UK?
I am also astonished at the naivtety in the view that if everyone became atheists we would all turn into peace-loving humanitarians. Would there really be no more violence or wars? Aren’t most wars fought over resources such as energy. Violent crime is not the preserve of religious believers. This campaign seems to me to be a monumental waste of time and money.
If you really want to make the world a better place to live it is no use eradicating religious belief if you do not work on developing a coherent basis for a better way to live.
– Harsh opinion – but it could be argued it keeps people in jobs, keeps Dawkins in work, sells books, stimulates important debate, draws attention to important current issues. Or did you mean to say X-Factor? cos then I’m with you. Monumental waste of time and money 😉 – Phillis
Regarding Mariano’s comment:
“Yet again, atheists are collecting “amazing sums†during a time of worldwide recession not in order to help anyone in real material need but in order to at”
I’m guessing you’re no Atheist?..Fair enough, but might I add something?
Money raised for this was VOLUNTARILY donated by those who support it, as is their right. What right do you have to say where people use their money? The Catholic church is sitting on unimaginable sums of cash we’ll never see been used to benefit others but is that more acceptable to you because it’s held by a religious organization?
Children In Need this year raised over £20 million pounds, & similar charity events all over the world continue to do well despite times been hard for many. It is clear that people still have time to give to those deserving, rather than the church.
(Re: Mariano, continued)…i wish we had more space to post. : (
My mother was one of fifteen children (contraception not allowed, you see) living in a small village in Ireland in the forties and fifties.
Her father worked horrible hours for a pittance at the local racing stables, and money was very tight.
Yet every Sunday he’d put money in the collection plate at church, because each Sunday a list of those who’d given would be read out to the congregation and he didn’t want to suffer the humiliation the following week of others knowing he didn’t give.
My mum and her siblings had no bloody shoes, yet he still gave money to the church every week because of their policy of reading out the names of givers.
This is how the church gets it’s money. From the poor and scarred.
Why can’t I post any more?!
Msg from Abeo: They got caught in the spam filter, should be showing now.
In response to Stu Kennedy,
Humanism is indeed a religion. I believe in science and nature, but remain open minded to other religions and their basis in fact. I am also a parent and when my son, now 2, is old enough to ask myself and my partner questions on religion we will research things together as a family and explain things to him, including our viewpoint.
What will differ in our family as opposed to other religious families is that we fully accept that we may be completely wrong in our beliefs and will tell him as much. He truly can make up his own mind on his personal belief system, and if he does grow up to be a religion different to ours, gay or any other label you can think of, as long as he is happy with who he is we will be happy to. My son’s only label is ‘James’.
How great is it that the child models used to front this campaign are actually happy, free, well adjusted and Christian!
HaHa!
Did you expect “atheist children,” by any chance? You’re kind of missing the point – it doesn’t matter what their parents are, they are too young to be labelled as Christian children. It wouldn’t be any more meaningful if the parents were atheists. I think it’s very telling – and very sad – that you feel the parental religion of the children on this poster matters.
I would have to agree with Mr. Angas. Derren Brown takes about subliminal messages. The fact that Agnostic (upper right hand, and bottom) and Atheist (under, “Let me grow up”, and also as a web address) are both mentioned twice more than any other “label”. But I do agree with the poster but I disagree how the poster is set up….
Alex Angas says:
November 19, 2009 at 10:51 am
Is it a coincidence that the phrase “Let Me Grow Up†and particularly the words “Grow Up†are directly above the word “Athiest� Hence the suggestion “Grow Up Athiest�
Is there any reason why the colours for that phrase are the same as the cover of the Athiest’s Guide to Christmas book?