New Bus Campaign
Had a delightful evening in the company of atheist heavyweights R Dawkins (on great form) and AC Grayling (I hadn’t met him before but love his work: he is particularly delightful in the flesh), as well as David Baddiel, who is always such a bright, switched-on pleasure. For anyone who came along to the Foyles event, I hope you enjoyed it, and apologies for rambling on too long about magic structure when I got asked a question.
Dinner after the event yielded the fact that a new atheist bus campaign is being kicked off. Araine, an organiser of the Foyles evening, a Guardian columist and the editor/driving force behind the Atheists’s Guide to Christmas (on our reading list of course), is behind the bus campaign too. Quite a claim to fame, and the sweetest, least imposing lady you could meet. The campaign focusses one unpleasant aspect of proselytising to children: the resultant labelling of tiny kids as ‘Christian’, ‘Muslim’ etc, in a way that we would never do with, say, political affiliations (labelling a small child ‘Conservative’, for example, seems very wrong). ‘Atheist’ is of course also included as an equally regrettable label to be attached to a child: the message is, to allow children to choose for themselves when they are old enough to decide.
Her column on the campaign is here.
The BBC story on the subject is here.
DBx
This is something I wholeheartedly agree with and is something I’ve always said. I firmly believe that children should be allowed to make their own choices as to what religion (if any) they wish to follow when they are ready to think about it. You don’t even want to get me started on Religious Education in schools currently 🙂
A subject I was pondering only yesterday due to my own son
Brilliant. Love it. People are too attached to labels.
Is it a coincidence that the phrase “Let Me Grow Up” and particularly the words “Grow Up” are directly above the word “Athiest”? Hence the suggestion “Grow Up Athiest”? 😉
So glad to see another campaign, hopefully this will help raise consciousness as Dawkins proposed.
“the message is, to allow children to choose for themselves when they are old enough to decide.”
Exactly right! Religion equates, in part, to one’s beliefs / morals and is, therefore, personal – it shouldn’t be forced on impressionable young people!
I’m a Christian and I really like this idea of not labelling. However, I don’t think it’s completely viable, I mean, how are parents supposed to raise their children without having to explain (or explain away) things such as God (or indeed Gods)? Such topics will doubtless be raised by children and the parents’ opinions will come out, thereby influencing the child to think like they do. This may in some cases be regrettable (such as the unfortunate children in that “God Hates Fags” church) but it is also unavoidable. Children will take on many of the cosmological and theological view of their parents and will grow up with an Atheistic, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Mormon, Humanistic or whatever bias if solely for the fact that their parents think in a certain way. It’s not necessarily proselytising.
That’s a really good message to get out there – I suppose it also relates to social grouping such as chavs etc – this is the kind’ve advertising that makes people wake up. I like the O2 one – “People are better, connected”.
Derren do you think you could (if you haven’t already) do some subliminal talking to make people question their political leaders, and what’s really going on in society. I don’t know to what extent these people work and if they’d find out what you’d really be telling the public. But I’m sure you could just subliminally programme them to not question it ahaha.
I’ma go and read that column now.
Luke.
Aside from the background, this is ad reaches far beyond the realm of labeling children with religions into labeling children with sexuality and gender identity. In fact, that’s what I thought it was until I looked more closely.
what a great campaign – I have long thought that this is the most important principle regarding religion and should be enshrined in law (thus making faith schools illegal) – we could see people suing for ‘wrongful education’ under the governments proposed new laws.
As for the bbc, I regularly trawl their site with my morning cuppa and saw no mention of this – the article would have been well hidden, due to the bbc’s unannouced religious agenda – I am convinced the corporation is run by a ‘christian cabal’ – try listening to morning radio without hearing the christian point of view about just about everything. Do they have a hidden agenda? – I think we should be told.
Give kids the whole picture and let them decide – with ALL the facts. I was so lucky that my primary school didn’t even mention God and my secongdary school taught us about all religions and never ever drummed God into us and that my parents and their parents married against their alloted Catholic/Protestant ‘religions’ and so it’s never been an issue in our house. Thank the Lord, haha!
@Andy Taylor – you can teach them ABOUT religion – why do they have to participate?
Nice poster, I’m interested to know how that works in practice though.
I mean, I can call my son a ‘child of Christian parents’, but what’s in a name?
What about this example –
The child of an atheist – “Is there a God, daddy?”
Atheist – “work it out for yourself, child.”
From the reading I’ve done, the answer “I don’t believe so” wouldn’t be appropriate for an atheist, would it?
I would rather label NOBODY, to be honest. :/
I grew up believing that there was a God, but I didn’t feel like it was particularly forced on me. I went to a C of E primary school, where we said a prayer in assembly and the Lord’s prayer at the end of the day. Apart from the Harvest Festival and the obligatory Nativity at Christmas, that was about it. Looking back, it was all quite nice, really. Just the fun stuff- and learning how to be nice to people and all that- with none of the ETERNAL DAMNATION stuff.
I don’t really believe in God these days, but I like to think that my early start has made me more tolerant of people that do- and I dislike extreme Atheists as much as I dislike fundamentalist religious types. There’s not much between them as far as I’m concerned and I often find them to be equally cretinous with their black and white views of the world and the people in it.
@Andy Taylor – Rather, why are they FORCED to participate?
Agree completely with the sentiment but as Andy and others have said its more complicated than the portrayal. If it makes people more aware of that they are saying then it will have been largely successful.
When people talk about faith schools though it gets even more complicated as almost all faith schools do academically better than non faith schools no government in the world is going to get rid of them while that is the case.
Despite the rhetoric that is out there I went to faith primary and secondary school and was never preached anything other than evolution as being the facts and when it came to sex education safe sex was also promoted. I am sure that there are some nutty fundamentalist schools out there but nothing has lead me to believe that they are the norm.
Just to clarify I am an Athiest and am very anti faith.
A story on the billboard appearing in NI here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8366390.stm
The child is labelled from birth based upon their parents / ancestors religious preferences, and this basically defines where they live, where they go, who they associate with, what schools they can go to, who might want to attack them based upon their ancestors religious preferences.
One of the local brainwashing leaders spouted:
“It is the height of arrogance that they would try to interfere between children and parents and what faith they are instructed in,”
It is the height of arrogance that children are being brought up in schools brainwashed about invisible supernatural entities before they have a chance to make their own beliefs.
Why oh why did we have to shove the tea into the Harbor? Maybe if we didn’t we would be a little more forward progressive in the U.S.
I got wind of this campaign a little earlier in the year and I think it’s brilliant. My parents, each coming from differing religious backgrounds, had the foresight to leave religion well out of my upbringing as they felt very strongly that it should be something I worked out for myself at an age where I’d be able to understand that kind of choice. As it happens, I had for many years considered myself a Christian, but it raised too many questions for which I didn’t really have all the answers. At the age of 26, I’m as much without a label as I was when I was a child, and all the better for it I feel, because I’m still asking questions.
This campaign is a great idea and I agree with it wholeheartedly.
However, I think that religious parents may be of the opinion that by getting their child to believe what they do, they may be “saving” them from whatever they believe will happen if the child is not part of their religion and as such be difficult to persuade otherwise.
I am glad that someone has decided to make a point about letting kids choose religion for themselves. As a child I had constant religious ideologies shoved down my throat…. I may have been more receptive about christianity today had this not been the case. I hope the message gets through. xx
There’s another evil out there – the labelling of children as “English” or “French”.
This sort of argument has always struck me as being Dawkins at his most stupid – there is more to religion than bad epistemology, and it’s not absurd to talk of “socialist children” or “conservative children” – socialists and conservatives will tend to bring up their children in particular ways and have certain expectations of them (on Dawkins’s argument, the state should have prevented my parents from getting me involved in leafletting for the Labour party, for example). One of the things that distinguishes children from adults is that until they are old enough to make up their own minds, their parents’ views (on religion, politics, or any other cultural matter) are assumed to be important and not to be lightly ignored by others.
Eh?
Labelling comes as a result of the way a child presents themselves as different from the majority. These are given by their peers as a result of the way they act, dress or speak about their/their family’s beliefs.
Are you saying that you want to discourage children to be different or stand out? Forcing a child to lie about who they are?
Are you telling me that humanist parents raise their children to respect the possibility of any religion being true? i.e. educate their children as to all the options for belief the child has without influencing their decision?
That’s ridiculous! Humanist parents indoctrinate their children the same way any other parent does, they tell their children what they as adults believe and explain the rationale for it. Humanism is a religion too! It believes that science is ultimate truth and there is no God!
Religion should be treated like a drug, given its effects on someone’s life. While inevitably people will absorb the views of their parents and family, any formal exposure to religion should be subject to an age limit, just like (some) drugs are (alcohol, tobacco) and as other drugs should be.
Ive always considered childhood indoctrination into religion to be one of the great evils of the world.
I agree, labelling of any kind, no matter what it is, is wrong. It’s a sad part of the world we live in nowadays where ones name isn’t enough anymore as a title…..
LC x
I absolutely agree that children should not be labelled, but surely if a child is brought up with parents who have strong political or religious views this will influence the childs decisions later in life
Noble thought. Altho according to statistics, a great many children are growing up to do that anyway…despite the abuse of being labeled. 😀
May I be the first to suggest that atheists start having lots of kids to see how this works our fer ya?
I completely support the idea behind the campaign, kids should not be automatically branded with the beliefs of their parents. I do wonder however if it’s also appropriate to do this with the label ‘atheist’. A new born child isn’t atheist because that is what they have been taught to believe, they’re atheist because they have no knowledge that such a thing as a god could even exist. Similarly they’re a-Santa because they have no knowledge that such a thing as a Santa could exist.
That being said, I’m not trying to advocate that all babies should be called atheist, that would plainly be absurd. What label is it appropriate to use when a being has no knowledge even of the concept never mind taken a stance on the issue?
You were fantastic at the Foyles meeting, and don’t worry, you didn’t ramble at all. 🙂 All the panellists were incredibly interesting (and Araine seemed very sweet too!), and I’m so glad I went and was able to hear and see you all.
I’m studying labelling theory right now, so I will read up on this ASAP. Plus, I love a good bus campaign. x 😉
Anarchist Child – that’s all of them isn’t it?
I totally agree with this campaign… My parents brought me up as a Christian child and when I recently told them that I’m an atheist, they were really upset about it. They sort of presumed that because they gave me a Christian upbringing, I HAD to be Christian for the rest of my life and it wasn’t my choice. Parents should teach their kids about God/Gods and atheism, and let their kids decide for themselves.
fantastic! If only this thought could go worldwide, we might get a step closer to all getting on together.
Well done Deren – I am in full agreement with this issue. I might be christened, although I do question it sometimes and have done just recently due to circumstances beyond my control that have happened in my life – like the loss of 2 loved one in recent months.
I fully back the campaign. WELL DONE ONCE AGAIN! 🙂 XXXXXXXXXX
Quite right too, what an excellent Idea the bus is, I hope we see it in Brighton 🙂
While I totally agree that children shouldn’t be forced in to practicing and believing in a religion, I’m a little worried that this might be mistaken for a campaign to stop children from learning about religon. My parents didn’t have me baptised when I was little because they wanted me to choose my faith when I was older, and I’m glad they didn’t, because I’ve chosen to be Wiccan; a religion that I didn’t even know existed when I was younger. It’s still important for kids to learn about different religions, not only because it’s an interesting subject, but because they can choose to follow a religion or lifestyle that will make them happy. I’m very happy to be Wiccan.
while i do agree with the sentiment of this campaign, it’s sort or “preahing to the choir”, if you’ll forgive a strained epigram. i think very few religious folks are going to be open minded enough to allow their children choice in matters of faith, if for no other reason than tradition. churches would not encourage this either, but rather exert social pressure on the parents to bring their kids in as well. i have trouble imagining an adult attending a church w/o taking their kids to Sunday school there, where they WILL be proseletysed to.
about the only people i can imagine giving their kids choice about religion are the irreligious.
as a side note, NONE of us really get to “choose” capatalism. we all live in it whether we want to or not.
I agree with this! I remember reading about it in “The God Delusion” and thinking “that makes so much sense!”.
Think about how completely unrealistic it is — If a child is born to a family of practicing Catholics, for instance, then the child would likely attend church with it’s parents on Sundays (or whatever… I’m not Catholic, so I don’t know what they do with any authority), as leaving a child home alone would be a lovely little case of child neglect. Now, simply attending the church and identifying with the parents (who are everything to a child. If there is a god, mother is it’s name on the lips of a child), they’re bound on it’s own to be labelled by others, even if the child is not baptized or called such by the parents. Instead of trying to encourage people not to label others (labeling is an important part of our mental organization of the world), why not simply teach the child to be secure in itself? Thus, it will form an identity.
Can’t see it making much of a difference. A family that holds it’s religious beliefs so strongly that they feel they’re saving themselves from damnation are hardly going to allow their children to stray into what they feel is harms way be not following their path. And can you imagine too many families leaving the kids at home with sitters on Sunday when they go to church?
It would be interesting to hear how many people of faith agree with this campaign. There must be some free thinking religious folk out there who are behind their kids choosing their own faith, whereas generally people without faith generally would prefer they don’t choose any at all. I’d describe myself as secular humanist. The SH society (Manc) meet every week to discuss their lack of faith. If I had any inclination to congregate, I’d probably be part of a religion.
Both my parents were brought up in different religions (one Catholic one Protestant) but because of the way it had been forced on both of them. (they were beaten if they refused to go.) They both left their faiths. Myself and my two sisters are all Baptist Christians, and my mum and dad have nothing against it they let us make the choice, just like that poster suggests….
BUT
On the other hand, a friend from my church is due her first child in Feb. Christians believe (and read from the bible) that if you don’t believe in God and ask Jesus to be your saviour then you will go to hell, no exceptions. How can you expect a mother to not tell her child about the faith that could be true?
Well, I am of the opinion that if you don’t choose to tell others about your religious beliefs, ultimately you don’t really believe them. Presupposing there is some sort of consequence after death depending on religious belief or practice, at least 75% of the world’s population is doomed as their practice is ineffectual. The idea that one religion is just as valid as another is only valid if no religion is correct, in which case it does not matter – live your life and take advantage. If you honestly believe you’ve found the truth and one of the central tenets of your religion is that there is no other way, you are not a true adherent to said religion if you don’t do what you can to help others find that truth as well. If you think there’s a train coming to hit someone and you don’t try to get them to move, you really don’t love them.
Finally! I had so many arguments with my sons primary school about this. Every year they would send a form home to update any personal/contact information and every year the religion box would already be filled in with christian. I would cross it out every year and write NON and it would break the head misstress tiny little brain!
So, it has moved on already in these discussions from simply “don’t label kids” to “don’t take them to church on sundays” or other religious events? At some point, isn’t it up to the family? I have to say, I blame extremists of all kinds for this country getting to the sad state where anyone feels the need to tell others how to raise their children.
I laughed at the statement saying that labelling a child “conservative” seems wrong. I wholeheartedly agree, but it reminded me of The Daily Show with Jon Stewert from last week where they showed clips of a Republican bringing in a baby and claiming it was Republican and stood up for all the usual Republican stuff, it was rather amusing and definitely worth a watch on 4OD.
What an awsome campaign! I was thinking the other day when i was growing up in school. How we used to pray before we ate, and used to get “farthers” in telling stories. Was weired because i never realised it to mean something. It was just something you did. Wonder if they still do that in school ?
The readings were all great, and I have to say I loved that your piece is on kindness Derren, a much underrated thing. You were all very lovely when signing afterward too, I very much appreciated you prouncing my name more coherently for me when I was mumbling away to AC Grayling. Anyway, ta- a lovely evening.
was JUST saying this yesterday!!! I back this campaign, think it’s wrong to put a religion onto a child without them deciding
As a believer in God and Christianity… I believe that other non-believers go to Hell. It is my responsibility as a parent to educate my child in the ways of God and teach my child to have a respect and love for Him. I think it is a parent’s right to educate their child in any way they wish. If the child later decides to leave the church, it is hardly controllable by the parent. People convert all the time, or simply leave the church. Maybe I am biased towards Christianity because my parents raised me in the church, but I love it. I would be ashamed not to teach my child about the joys that Christianity can bring. I think it would be against my beliefs as a Christian. For this campaign to tell me how to raise my child and turn my back on my beliefs is just as offensive.