Curing the gays
We’ve been getting a few emails concerned about Conservative candidate Philippa Stroud and her religious inclination to ‘cure’ those who prefer a bit of healthy man-on-man, or gal-on-gal action to the other mixed-sex variants once popular in the nineties. A Guardian article outlining the story is here.
I’m not interested in politics, and don’t wish to comment on this as a political issue. I have, however, attended these sorts of church sessions and even courses which set about healing the ‘brokenness’ of homosexuality. Their premise is that we should be straight, as intended by God, but that when our early relationships with same-sex parents are unfulfilled, we develop an unmet need for identification and closeness from our same sex which is then eroticised during adolescence. Make of that what you will: certainly it’s not uncommon forΒ us whoopsies to have struggled a bit with parents of our gender, but whether that’s a cause of sexuality, or a result of it, or not at all related, is a different issue. Offering counselling, holding courses, and authoring various books on the subject are a number of people once gay, but claiming to have turned straight through the Grace of God, and through healing those broken relationships. When these people are questioned closely, they do not so much as talk about a full ‘conversion’ of sexuality, more that they have learnt to not respond to their homosexual urge (and which they still acknowledge from time to time) and that they have found a place in their lives for a straight relationship. Again, make of that what you will. Certainly it seems to me that if you’re offering the promise of change to people who may (for whatever reason) desperately want it, it’s important to come up with the goods. I don’t believe that it does really come up with the goods, which will come as no suprise, I’m sure. So a word of warning to anyone unhappy in their sexuality who is considering this route. It’s more likely to cause further depression than stop it.
At the time I was fascinated by its claims, and like many people wishing their sexuality would pass or change, hoping it would be effective. Looking back on it, it is of course simply misguided and damaging. A good friend of mine was very active in the movement for years, eventually realised he was not changing, and is now very happy in aΒ gay relationship, having dealt with the ‘guilt and embarrassment’ of ‘failing’, as it inevitably seemed to him.Β For all that, he has become a firmer Christian, so I wouldn’t presume to say that he regrets his experience of it all. Faith is a funny thing.
I share the distaste that many feel for this. Regardless of how ridiculous (and offensive, if you take offense at such things) it may sound to ‘cure’ gay people, there are plenty of unhappy people – especially, I would imagine, those holding a religious belief – who would welcome the idea of an easy change to being straight. It would be lovely to think that a church at least in part devoted to peace on earth and making people happier would turn their efforts towards the far more helpful cause of educating people to acceptΒ (through whatever complex play of nature and/or nurture) how they or others have turned out in life. I’m sure plenty of Christians – even Tories – find such ‘therapy’ quite distasteful, however confusedly well-meaning it might be within the world of the gross religious presumptions it inhabits. I hope that both groups have the sense to publicly distance themselves from this confused and probably quite harmful practice. I read of such things now and shiver.
D
A brave, tactful and timely response. Well done Derren, we can always rely on you to be the voice of reason.
R
My GOD, them Born Agains are a queer lot aren’t they !! No, I mean…….
Well said Derren, although I believe these ‘cure the gays’ groups have been around for quiet awhile, it seems that there’s been a surge in recent years – they must be challenged at every opportunity. Will
Seriously though….Christians, in my experience, are the worst offenders of non-tollerance…let he who has not sinned cast the first stone indeed! I have a great deal of experience with Christians/Born Agains…I was one once, and after my own ‘faulter’ I was BANNED from the church, they actually voted in front of me to barre me from entering !! I’m sure they are supposed to follow their leaders example, and treat prostitutes and sinners etc, with love & compassion…..they have no clue what compassion means…trust me…I could tell you stories about my own experiance that would make you weep…..Take heart Derren….the world is full of beautiful people, and NONE of them are Christians, but I’m sure many of them are gay…
Tim
x
I think you should run in the election tomorrow Derren, you definitely have your head screwed on better than anyone else:) – and you have at least one vote! – (I’m sure you’d get thousands though!:)) xxx
What annoys me the most is the constant need to label people as straight or gay. Surely it is only about love and you can’t choose where your heart will decide to plant that love.
Philippa Stroud used the word ‘disturbed’ to describe homosexuals, drug addicts etc. She believes in the power of prayer and is a member of an evangelical church that advocates mysogyny. As Tim Minchin said – I wouldn’t want this woman collecting my rubbish!
I would have thought such a program lowers ones faith if failed, but I agree.
I wonder how the deeply religious would react if at some point in the future, a ‘cure’ for religious beliefs was proposed. The idea occurred to me as I’ve just read an interview with Sue Blackmore who comments on the possibility of gaining an understanding of religious beliefs, how they thrive and potentially how to intervene and change them, with a deeper understanding of memetics. Memetics isn’t taken particularly seriously yet and who knows if it could lead to ‘curing a belief’, but it’s interesting to speculate. I could just imagine the reaction if one day Richard Dawkins proudly announced ‘memeticists’ had developed a ‘cure’ for religious belief. π
Of course that would be insane, ‘curing’ religious belief is almost (but not quite) as daft an idea as ‘curing’ homosexuality.
This is pretty much what I have been saying today as some-one who went through this ordeal. This is a wider debate than a political smear campaign, regardless of all the ‘good works’ probably done in the name of the lord, whether or not she has “laid hands” on people to cure them of their gay ways is irrelevant, the fundamental issue here that this is a commonly held evangelical Christian belief which can and often does end up with prayer ministry to help people ‘overcome’ or be se their gayness! Its an abuse of trust. Being gay is normal, it is a biological fact, it just is not as common place as heterosexuality. I reserve the right after everything I went through to be against science deniers holding positions of responsibility but Mrs Stroud whatever her position is hardly the only one
Applause to you Mr Brown for a well written piece.
As a “hettie” I am not subject to this form of short sighted and bigoted view, so I will never truely know how hurtful people like Mrs Stroud can be. However I find any group of people who think that their view is the only one that is right and actively seek to encourage this “healing” distasteful. How long before they try to “heal” athiests or sceptics?
I know you sai you are not political but I tihnk a failure by the Tories to denounce this practise a sign of a creeping right wing religious view being swept under the carpet only to come out if they ever get into power.
On a slightly related subject…Rock the vote! No matter who you vote for.
Strange that an organisation founded by a flamboyant young man who displayed no desire to procreate and clearly preferred the company of virile young men to nubile young ladies should spend so much of it’s time demonising those who 2,000 years later do the same.
One might presume that the lady is protesting a little too earnestly.
So heterosexuals just develop an unmet need for identification and closeness from our different sex parent which is then eroticised during adolescence? I assume?
It just shows that Church as an institution still struggles to move on with changing times and is convinced it can hold on to its preaching and dogmas which were “relevant” a few hundred years ago when people looked solely to the Church as guidance and rather than within themselves and society. The Church as institution is just too far removed sometimes from the quintessence of being Christian. Rather than concentrating on enabling people to be happy, it still holds on to strike “The Fear of God” into those who decide to find their happiness in a relationship that might not fit the norm of the institution of Church. It frightens, worries and upsets me that an institution as powerful as the Church and religion does not see it necessary to move with the times and changes in society.
That’s in fact quite scary even if you skip the part in which this theory implies that being gay means you are somehow worse and/or sick. The whole ‘therapy’ does seem to be about supressing one’s true orientation and forcing to change it just so it could be more suitable, ‘healthy’ or whatever. But it doesn’t really work that way, does it?
And I don’t believe any of the ‘screwed up relationship with your parents or at least one of them made you gay’ nonsense either. If it was actually true wouldn’t it mean that every child that was raised by only one parent is somehow obliged to be gay?
K.
I hate when people think that being gay is uncool, My brother thinks its uncool but im just thinking “Well.. Derren Brown is and hes the coolest person on earth!” I myself am not gay, Nor do i belive in God, But i do believe in people doing what THEY want to do.
Ah well there will always be stupid people..
G’day!
Thankyou for writing this Derren. I was so desperate to made straight and “happy” I went this route in my early twenties and couldn’t have put my point across any better than you have.
Heartfelt, honest, timely and holding none of the judgement many churches would (ironically).
Much appreciated.
To me, this is just another example of why religious thinking is extremely dangerous. Some people need to start using logic, reason and evidence instead of resorting to what is dictated to them by their faith. Homosexuality is a biological issue. It has been observed in thousands of different species of animal. and we are just one species of animal. It is ridiculous to think that it can be ‘cured’, it is clear to any rational person that sexual orientation is innate, inbuilt and unchangeable.
As a gay man myself, I am almost entirely certain that it is nature rather than nurture issue. Attempting to change your orientation in my opinion would be like attempting to make yourself no longer attracted to food or drink – a waste of time.
Thank you for recognising that not all Christians – and in my opinion not even a large minority of Christians – would be taken in by this garbage. It’s people like this that give faith a bad name.
Such a well-worded blog post, Derren. It’s just so sad that we live in a world where people can’t be accepted for who they are……
LC x
Right on – nothing wrong with being gay. Besides, “curing the gays” doesn’t work. Not even for the people who claim to be able to do the curing, write books on how to keep your children from being gay, and lobby to have rights taken from them. Check it out, from my side of the pond;
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2010-05-06/news/christian-right-leader-george-rekers-takes-vacation-with-rent-boy/1
“It would be lovely to think that a church at least in part devoted to peace on earth and making people happier would turn their efforts towards the far more helpful cause of educating people to accept (through whatever complex play of nature and/or nurture) how they or others have turned out in life.”
Absolutely 100% agreed!
The Tories have thrown an intimidating wall of silence up around this issue, such that the media dare not touch it. The following article has helped fill in a few gaps for me. I am voting tactically in my constituency tomorrow. I am voting for the only party in my constituency that has a chance of stopping the Tories from winning the seat – even though I would rather vote for another party. Stopping the Tories getting in is my priority.
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/16033/top-tory-adviser-ran-prayer-group-to-heal-lgbts
I love all these conversion processes and it seems as you look through modern history they crop up regularly but for varying “problems”, obviously the current run is on homosexuality. The interesting thing for me is it says more about the individuals want to help than it does about the “problem” the homosexual person has.
Faith is a great thing and I’m sure that at its core even christianity is probably ok, but I struggle with the concept of a groovy man wandering through the middle east telling people to try to be nice to each other and love god, got twisted in to the dogmatic organisation it is today with so many do gooders trying to “fix” others in his name!
So if they want to start “fixing” people, there are those with a lot bigger “issues” than those liking same sex relationships!
Sounds like Ms Stroud and N/Ireland’s very own Iris Robinson would get along famously. Iris,a ‘born again’ christian MLA and DUP MP(and lover of toyboys half her age) proclaimed in 2008 that she knew of a psychiatrist who could ‘turn around ‘ homosexuals and openly argued that ‘it’ could be cured with psychotherapy. Thankfully the psychiatrist involved in her dastardly plan to ‘cure’ us all is now up in front of the GMC. Scary thing is this crack-pot was actually chair on the Health Committee in N/Ireland. Sadly politics and religion go hand in hand over here- no matter how bloody stupid and hypocritical the beliefs are!!
At times like this, it’s important to remember what the bible tells us that Jesus said about homosexuality:
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im 12 and atheist, but im soo confused! im a girl and i think im startting to get feelings for friend lilly! im so confused but this might just be “growing up” ? i think iv had feelings for boys in school before but not like this, is there any advise you can give to your younger audience ?
thank you x
Loving how calmly this is put when I’m sure a lot of people would feel inclined to rack up rows of exclamation marks. Well said!
I think that what you say is well reasoned and certainly true, however, like you pointed out, not all tories hold this view. I’m sure only a tiny percentage of them hold this view in fact. Also, You say ‘we whoopsies’, I didn’t know you were gay although I did have a feeling (: You are a great loss to woman kind I assure you.
It is refreshing to read this level-headed assessment of a practice which is surely one of the least charitable acts of the church. I agree wholeheartedly that if Christians (and others) followed the doctrine of being nice to everyone, which is so often how they define the basis of religious life, there would be no need for such “conversions”.
I’ll be glad when all this election nonsense is over!
Oh, and a very interesting article π
The gays dont cause half the problems that religion does! as witty and insightful as any rebuke i could make think its probably best to just say….fuck religion certainly, probably fuck the tories too and people claiming a brokeness in peoples lifestyle choices had best be near enough self actualised and very well adjusted people indeed!……im yet to meet one.
Actually this is a funny story, in the way that people still think Archaic. Now is it their fault because they have been brainwashed into believing this or not? As you know, someone who believes in something strongly and passionately is 100% sure they are right because that’s what they have been taught.
For those who want a more real approach I would recommend watching the episode of South Park – http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0948344/ and also watching Ricky Gervais’ – Animals.
Both very good in turning what people think is a problem into humour and awareness.
Scott
oh wow your gay, fine, but a great loss to women as jane says …. mwah xx
I did have a large comment but lost it through spam. Anyway, has the church not got a big thing on forgiveness? I know that is unecessary but for the believers (on another mans written word around 100CE) can they not just “turn the other cheek” when they are offended like I should when offended at hypocrisy within the church? Happiness is paramount and this institution has to respect individuals rights to safe passionate and consensual sexual activity. The church should go to court, not just the pope!
great post! I just recently read somewhere that you are gay. I never had any feeling about it as I think you dont show your sexuality at all. I liked that very much. Your charisma is asexual, so people can concentrate on other things and not be bothered by your libido.
As a “born again christian” I find it disgusting and am angry that other “born again” people treat others like that. Jesus was a loving person, he did not dismiss or condemn anyone apart from those who were selfish. According to various biblical verses homosexuality is a sin, but so is lying, paedophilia, murder, lust and anger. We all are as bad as each other, no one is perfect!
I agree with Derren, most “gays” who are “cured” actually find a way to control their urges, in the same way those addicted to alcohol, porn or anything else get their urges under control and live with the fact that it is always there. I know at least three “gays” who struggle with this.
Eloquently put as always, DB.
Link to the Observer (Guardian) website isn’t working. Do I get a prize? π
Msg from Abeo: Fixed, thanks π
Am I the only one distracted and fascinated by the use of the term “whoopsies” in this post?
At this stage in human development I find it odd that people are still so bothered by gay sex. Homosexuality has been identified in 400 species on this planet – why should man be exempt? Subject to the age of consent, ability to consent etc. its a perfectly normal expression of human sexual response. ‘God bothering’ has really been about enforcing social control over the centuries. The fact that this daft woman has been party to ‘saving’ people by spouting mumbo jumbo doesn’t surprise me at all. If David Cameron has actually been susceptible to it – I’m glad my postal vote has been cast elsewhere.
Seline: I’m not Derren, but I hope I may be able to offer some advice as well.
If I were you, I’d just allow myself to feel whatever I feel — don’t attempt to label it yet. You’re still very young, and headed for a lot of new experiences. Don’t get scared by your feelings. If they’re reciprocated, so much the better — love is a great thing, no matter what the configuration is. If they’re not, well, they’re just feelings — they can’t harm anyone. You may like girls, or boys, or both genders. Wait and see what the future holds.
I’m 27 myself, and I’m attracted to both genders. I must admit that my default assumption seems to be that everyone is, but I do adjust that when corrected. π I think that if two people are attracted to one another, it shouldn’t matter what gender they are!
hee – I was seeking some respite from discussing this very article so came to this blog and lo! It’s like your a mind reader or something π Oh well it gives me another link for my article once it’s written.
maybe this lady wants to think more about curing bloody cancer poverty and war and the economic state than religous ethics which can no longer be rammed down our throats. for years people lived and died by the bible and still do thank god (yes i am religous) people are coming to their senses. we are taught to tolerate others… unless your gay??????? lesbian???? this country will never move on with people like her
Ok I’m gonna say it! “come on girls who needs curing”
And the day still has to come that people ”do no longer identify with sexuality” but just ”Love ΓΒ‘nd who they are attracted to” and decide to get into a relationship with eachother as long as it are ”consenting adults” based on the ”Love and attraction” that is shared then it should be all just Good …be it male-male gal-gal male-gal or more persons or freely loving…
And when such a claim as above comes from Religious books…be happy! because it virtually saves you money and a trip to the supermarket to get toilet-paper.
I have 2 children, a boy aged 11 and a girl aged 7. We have been very frank with both of them and told them about gay relationships and what it means. We have also told them that we don’t give a flying f**k if they were to ever turn around and tell us that they were gay because their Mental Health and happiness is far more important and we will be proud of who ever they are. Groups like this are a Cancer that seeks to segregate individuals based on their own fears (of their own sexuality????)
here’s the thing…it doesnt matter where you wish, or who you wish to share your parts with – even less so where you end up sharing your heart with… at the same time, (though i know no-one has expressed this directly) not all ‘believers’ are bad, bigotted, anti-gay people…
unfortunately, its the loud-mouthed, idiotic sections of the religious community that spoil it for (i’m guessing) the majority…i’m atheist, with zen buddhist leanings (yes, you can have such a thing as there is no god in zen buddhism) – its also a shame that this majority do not speak out more when the big mouthed representatives spout such gushing rubbish…and you could also argue that if god didnt want gay people on earth then why did he create homosexuality? theres idiots of all beliefs…
@Seline – honey, relax! I by no means have the qualifications to help you on this, only age (being an ancient 31 year old!) and I am sure there will be some great advice from other people on here. No matter what age you are we continue to build upon different levels of relationships, from parents and siblings as well as old and new friends. Don’t just jump right into anyones arms, make sure you can remain best friends and do what you feel is right. You have no need to worry or hurry! Best wishes : ) Emma.
I just shared this on facebook i feel that everyone should read this. One this has told me that if there was one small part of me considering it, i definately will not be voting Tories come tomorrow! I really liked this article, and actually what i liked about this is a little bit of a more personal look at you. Im only 19 and im so confused about my sexuality, and given the chance i would love to “cure” it. That isnt to say i would make myself straight, just sure of one way or the other, not where i am at the moment. Its a comfort that somone like yourself who i look up to so much, did go through similar tough times and has come out of it the otherside happy (and in a relationship if the article i read was correct). Thank you for writing this Derren x
why doesent the church just let people live and let live and convert there own priest and nuns who abuse kids