Curing the gays
We’ve been getting a few emails concerned about Conservative candidate Philippa Stroud and her religious inclination to ‘cure’ those who prefer a bit of healthy man-on-man, or gal-on-gal action to the other mixed-sex variants once popular in the nineties. A Guardian article outlining the story is here.
I’m not interested in politics, and don’t wish to comment on this as a political issue. I have, however, attended these sorts of church sessions and even courses which set about healing the ‘brokenness’ of homosexuality. Their premise is that we should be straight, as intended by God, but that when our early relationships with same-sex parents are unfulfilled, we develop an unmet need for identification and closeness from our same sex which is then eroticised during adolescence. Make of that what you will: certainly it’s not uncommon for us whoopsies to have struggled a bit with parents of our gender, but whether that’s a cause of sexuality, or a result of it, or not at all related, is a different issue. Offering counselling, holding courses, and authoring various books on the subject are a number of people once gay, but claiming to have turned straight through the Grace of God, and through healing those broken relationships. When these people are questioned closely, they do not so much as talk about a full ‘conversion’ of sexuality, more that they have learnt to not respond to their homosexual urge (and which they still acknowledge from time to time) and that they have found a place in their lives for a straight relationship. Again, make of that what you will. Certainly it seems to me that if you’re offering the promise of change to people who may (for whatever reason) desperately want it, it’s important to come up with the goods. I don’t believe that it does really come up with the goods, which will come as no suprise, I’m sure. So a word of warning to anyone unhappy in their sexuality who is considering this route. It’s more likely to cause further depression than stop it.
At the time I was fascinated by its claims, and like many people wishing their sexuality would pass or change, hoping it would be effective. Looking back on it, it is of course simply misguided and damaging. A good friend of mine was very active in the movement for years, eventually realised he was not changing, and is now very happy in a gay relationship, having dealt with the ‘guilt and embarrassment’ of ‘failing’, as it inevitably seemed to him. For all that, he has become a firmer Christian, so I wouldn’t presume to say that he regrets his experience of it all. Faith is a funny thing.
I share the distaste that many feel for this. Regardless of how ridiculous (and offensive, if you take offense at such things) it may sound to ‘cure’ gay people, there are plenty of unhappy people – especially, I would imagine, those holding a religious belief – who would welcome the idea of an easy change to being straight. It would be lovely to think that a church at least in part devoted to peace on earth and making people happier would turn their efforts towards the far more helpful cause of educating people to accept (through whatever complex play of nature and/or nurture) how they or others have turned out in life. I’m sure plenty of Christians – even Tories – find such ‘therapy’ quite distasteful, however confusedly well-meaning it might be within the world of the gross religious presumptions it inhabits. I hope that both groups have the sense to publicly distance themselves from this confused and probably quite harmful practice. I read of such things now and shiver.
D
It’s frightening and disturbing, because you wonder how deep discrimination goes. This ignorance shouldn’t exist anywhere anymore, let alone within our cabinets. Being gay, straight or bi is NORMAL!!!, simply because it’s natural, between consenting adults and as a consequence causes noone harm. It beggars belief how she can say something about homosexuality, but the case of paedophilia within the Catholic Church is conveniently dusted under the carpet.
The description of denial therapy through religion must be emotionally harmful to each individual that they have touched.
Thanks to Derren for his decency and common sense, and his subtlety of argument – very poignant, I think! 🙂
well said! a very well written piece. you never cease to amaze me. a round of applause to you derren!
Hi,
first of all: I am neither christian nor gay. I respect gay people highly (especially persons of public interest) since it still takes a lot of courage to stand to who you are and live with all the disadvantages this comes with, since tons of people who say they “tolerate that” simply don’t.
But: I’ve seen straight guys admitting to be gay but still saying they felt straight when they were younger and were happy with that. So – out of curiousity: Was there a change or were they all just lying to themselves? If there never was a change, we’re done with that topic. But if there was – might they – be straight (and happy) again? I really don’t know that.
Not talking about trying to “cure” people, since being gay is by far no illness or weakness. It’s just that question
George
It’s people like this that give faith and religion a bad name. Its a real shame that some people really do still live in the dark ages. Sexuality does not define a person. Im a christian and I believe God loves us all and accepts us all no mattern what.
Well said derren x
Is it just me that finds ‘turn the other cheek’ funny in this context?
Too many Carry On films, and Round The Horne methinks.
Anyway, as usual a well thought out and elegantly written reply. You really should stand as the next PM, I imagine the election broadcasts would be VERY persuasive 🙂
spiderabc1 – I personally think that the main problem is not what the church would be prepared to forgive or turn the other cheek – I doubt you meant it to, but that implies that the church would be somehow justified in considering your sexuality to be a sin. Which would be like considering brown hair to be a sin.
That kind of attitude is abhorrent and should be challenged at every turn. No right minded, reasonable, caring human being should ever put someone in a position where they feel guilt or shame about that which is natural.
“There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear”
If you love someone, you shouldn’t fear somehow offending God because perfect love casts out fear. If you have nothing to fear from God, you shouldn’t have anything to fear from God’s followers.
“I’m not interested in politics, and don’t wish to comment on this as a political issue.”
Any issue that affects someone else is political in nature. But I understand your desire to distance yourself from the political theatrics and the self-serving people who support one side of an issue for popularity/publicity reasons. However, you are preaching to the choir here.
It comes back to people doing bad things for perceived good reasons again. Within that frame, all sorts of abuse is justified. So, how to break an individual’s frame on this issue? Then how to do it covertly on a massive scale?
I’m definitely not buying this ‘same parent’ theory at all and how can being gay be compared to being a drug addict or an alcoholic. Clearly, she knows nothing about addiction and even less about homosexuality. Sadly, because of people like her, addicts and alcoholics are walking around in chronic emotional pain trying to cope with their “white knuckled sobriety†and gay people are in chronic emotional pain because they’re pretending to be straight…ridiculous.
Thank you so much for writing this piece. About a year ago, someone told me that they considered GLBT-sexuality a disease. I’d been in plenty of online debates before that, but having it said to my face for the first time left me feeling awful for days. Perhaps it was largely the shock of encountering such beliefs in my rather atheistic environment – even the RE teachers here are borderline atheist -, but having an essential part of yourself demonised like that remains unsettling. It’s comforting to read eloquent statements like yours.
Going into therapy to change your sexuality is like going into therapy to change your eye-colour. You may wear contacts to obfuscate it, but all you’re likely to get out of it are itchy eyes.
Hey Derren,
Good article. I think what alot of people don’t realise is that you don’t choose to be gay. It would be alot easier to be accepted by everyone. Its probably a sign of how i feel right now but if i could take a pill to change the way i feel i would take it in a second just so i could live a ‘normal’ life……
Demonic activity
Hey Derren!
Your work is excellent, I admire the fact you have a reason to everything you do. You have great depth. I’m 18, brought up in a Christian background, in no way am I a ‘happy clappy Christian’, i have struggled with the faith, ripped it to shreds with questions, and will continue to do so. I would count myself as Christian but at the same time realistic. I find the church lashes out at homosexuals because it’s against their image of God, who is perfect, because it is different it challenges their belief system and they don’t like it so they reject it. I’ve never sat down and actually talked to someone who would count themselves as gay etc, so I have no complete view. I’m limited on words, and could write for ages, I think there is a side to both as brutal as the church can be.
funny how christianity is supposed to be about non judgement and forgiveness…
Well said Derren, I can confirm your suspicions are correct; yes it CAN cause a great deal of damage to someone who has been made to suppress their true gay feelings. It often leads to issues such as depression, anxiety, anger, violence, and even suicide.
Many studies on Homophobia confirm a direct correlation between homophobia, and being in denial of their OWN homosexuality. So is Philippa Stroud attempting to ‘cure’ gay people of their homosexuality as a ‘DISPLACEMENT’ of attempting to ‘cure’ herself of her OWN suppressed homosexual lesbian sexual orientation..? This is very common place; it is often the ‘real driver’ behind such homophobic attitudes and activity, where religious beliefs are used as a ‘legitimiser’ in order to support such homophobic attitudes.
Cheers –
Bob
Seline
You are still very young (That’s not an insult. I’m just saying you have time.). Hey, I had crushes when I was young too. I didn’t feel sexually attracted to people until later. I am hetero, and always have been, but what I’m trying to say is that I could feel mushy about someone when I was younger, but I didn’t really feel physically attracted to people until my late teens. Please don’t worry. Enjoy the friendships you have with girls and boys. There’s no rush to label anything. You’ve got plenty of time. I understand that people want to feel loved, and physical expression is a lot of that (cuddling, kissing, etc), just make sure you are with people who respect you, and will be concerned for your safety and feelings. I hope that your parents are people you can talk to about these things.
And Derren,
Thank you for opening up about this.
Tim (“Spread Thinly”), it’s infantile at best, and, taking into account what you’re saying, most certainly hypocritical, to universalize your personal bad experience, saying “all” Christians are intolerant asses.
Had you payed any attention whatsoever, you’d have noticed that *most* (but *absolutely* not all) Christians are very tolerant. One experience with a bunch of morons does not equal the universal reality.
If you’re interested in ideological self-apotheosis and intolerance, be sure to note the way your average outspoken atheist shrieks at your average complacent theist.
Anywho, excellent article, Derren. However, I’m surprised you only spoke of one sort of “therapy,” taking into account your background in NLP, hypnosis and several variations thereof.
Reading some of these comments I find that a lot of people feel hostility towards christians. While this could be because they have had hostility from people of the church I feel it is unfair to brand all christians as homophobic and intollerant. As a (not so) devout catholic I too am angered by the unjust and hypocritical teachings of the church. Despite atempts to bring me up as a devout catholic I am still an open minded acepting individual. My best friend since year 7 told me he was gay in year 8 and was shocked when (as a catholic) I told him I wasn’t bothered. Looking back I think it is the bible teachings of acceptance which have crafted me into the tolerant man I am today but yet there are messages of hate spouted from the pope as he sits on his golden throne up in the Vatican. Catholicism is a backwards religion and I sometimes dislike calling myself one so I implore you not to think of us all the same but look past the dusty out of date teachings they follow and see the individual with their own viewpoints
Matt
Oh, for the love of (well, whoever and for whatever reason, actually. Anybody who tries to dictate otherwise of others essentially attempts to remove their rights to exist as a free, naturally-driven individual). Whatever your political/religious opinion, politicians dragging the progression of society back two decades is everything a country doesn’t need. It says they are disinterested in future generations that will populate society, in providing a foundation for them, in building a relationship with them, and have little grasp on the reality which is that LIFE EVOLVES and anything that tries to resist that, fails and suffers.
Yet, what a shame there are those still bound by the restrictions of society long gone, themselves unknowingly denied the freedom we can at least fight for.
MMM Betty the dog as done a whoopsie on the carpet, u cant say ur a whoopsie, that means your dog poo LOL in frank spencers world it does lol …xxxxxx
Where’s the rope, I think we need a good old fashioned lynching here … 😉
[Lynching the Christian Fanatics wanting to “cure it”…]
PS!
As an anecdote, it’s quite paradoxically indeed that another “cure” was written about in your blog a couple of months ago, but that time using positive words about it … 😉
Maybe it’s time to reconcile ones believe systems…?
Msg from Abeo: All articles posted on this blog under Phillis or Abeo are news articles from other sites that are put here for discussion, We have not written them and they therefore do not always represent our view points. As it says in the FAQ we “share anything that we find fascinating, amusing and just plain ridiculous.” 🙂
it’ll disappear eventually. lobotomies were once the shit too–even winning the nobel prize for their originator.
being gay what ever gender you are doesnt stop u from being a good person christian,jew,ect or even a bad person you are who you are. things happen in all our lives that lead us on diffrent paths,no one has the right to say one way of life is better or worse than anyone elses or try to enforce their veiws,yet we see everyday this kind of narrow mindedness.i bet if u took a close look into politicians lives they would not be so clean cut,so you have to rise above the small minded minority,and pitty them really because their own lives must be so empty that they need to fill their time on ridiculous crusades as the topic we are talking about.
Wow, thank you for a great article, and insightful comments. Whoopsies.
They can certainly take the gaiety out of our lives, but they can’t change our sexuality. The patronising bastards!
Very well said Mr Brown! I wish more people would realise this.
Speaking as a bisexual former Christian, my experience is that this kind of treatment can at worst be a kind of spiritual bullying. At best it’s intrusive, pointless and emotional blackmail.
I’ve never known it actually “cure” someone of their sexuality, but I have known it “cure” people of their belief in Christianity, and often very bitterly too.
@Jez – I understand what you are saying. I simply meant those in the church go on about forgiveness and allow murders etc into heaven so why can they no just ignore this so called sin and get on with their own lives? Personally according to the church I am well on my way to hell, which of course is bull, but if the Devil has a body like that I will be well happy!
It’s always struck me as a teeny bit presumptuous to decide that the all-powerful God made some people homosexual ‘by mistake’. Or as a test – what kind of nasty deity would programme His children so they would have to suppress, of all things, loving feelings? I think religious folk who believe this, don’t seem to think much of their God. Give Him the benefit of the doubt! (In this, as in all things…)
Wow, Derren! You have really got this debate going? The Church needs to realise that we are ALL labelled? Man, woman, fat, thin, black, white, sane, mad , gay, straight, addict or not? The list goes on and on? Unfortunately, it would seem there are too many so-called requirements to being a true modern day Christian, in a world that has grown socially diverse in its complexities? Perhaps you should consider making a film?
3 mixed race, alcoholic, Lesbian and a Baby? Doesn’t matter what you are at the end of the day? Someone will ALWAYS take offence, such is life?
I love this post, and I think that this clip accompanies it well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-zhNiGlogQ
Enjoy x
Hey D,
yeh i just wanna say that although I’m not religious at all in any way i do kinda feel sorry for those within the christian community who do not feel the same way cos man that would suck to have her as a representative.
@Seline and Berber first of all Berber great advice to Seline!
I completely agree, with her! Sexuality at such young age is very confusing!
Many people have had a sexual experience with a same sex person in their teenage years and this is considered normal! We call it exploring our sexuality, in puberty many hormones flush through your body and different sexual feelings come with that.
No matter what you choose to become 8 or 10 years from now, enjoy it! But take it slow! Only share your love with people who are worth it and with mutual consensus.
I’d prefer that any talented, healthy and attractive person such as Derren who is homosexual would at least spread their genes by mating with someone of the opposite sex. Studies of mice show homosexuality may be due to mother’s hormonal imbalance during fetal development. If this is true, then it is not a choice but a permanent preference, but one which inevitably will lead to the person’s genetic extinction if not seen as such. I’ve always been very impressed by Derren Brown, his ability to master a crowd and dominate a group is something anyone would wish their father could do, and indeed those who have high aptitudes for objectively beneficial social skills should probably naturally have more offspring, as it’s unlikely entirely environmental, stemming from an analytical brain.
Doug, are you aware that you’re talking about Derren as though he’s a bloody stud horse? Were you considering a ‘breed the perfect mentalist’ program or something?? WTF…
I am religious myself, but have never thought of homosexuality as unnatural or necsesarilly a result of an imbalance. I find it very frustrating that some people use their religion to legitimate their inability to accept differents ways of living. In this case homosexuality.Also, the therapy and courses to cure this ‘disease’ is at best distasteful, at worst, completely destructive. Lets be honest, Christians have a long tradition of not being very accepting of a great many things. I’m a Christian, but that kind of a Christian. In my mind, what they are doing is not Christian at all. I’m sure they have twisted it all around in their heads, so they believe, they do it to save gays/lesbians from hell or pergatory. Such ignorance!!!
Has anyone noticed that the devil has no “knob”
Fascinating.
One day we’ll look back at all this embarrassing and hurtful nonsense and be amazed that some people got away with voicing these opinions without being prosecuted.
I know a man who is gay and a minister, I must ask him about this crap.
As someone who I can’t remember said, being straight isn’t normal it’s just common.
Hey Derren! I think you’re great, I didnt realise you were a woofter/shirtlifter/whoopsie/whatever. It’s not something I’d judge on or presume to know one when I see one (apart from those theatrically effeminate queers like Julian Cleary or Graham Norton, which you are definitely not!). I’m an Irish Catholic by default, which is like having a tattoo that you just cannot get rid of, I’m actually a non-believer, or a Pagan in that I believe that without the sun, moon, earth and elements we cannot exist and so these are the things we should be worshiping, and I believe that homosexuality, like heterosexuality, like any lustful urge, for passion, for chocolate, for a good sleep, is human nature and should be indulged and respected, and if you cant say anything nice, dont say anything all!
Furher to my last comment… I also wanted to say that I agree with Doug in that it’s a shame you wont be pro-creating (will you?) even though there’s no way to guarentee your sprogs would be just like you… and that maybe you could teach and pass on your craft in some other way, although I think your personality is 99% of your appeal, and although NLP and such things are much studied and coached, I think that when the persuasive and domineering traits are instinctual (as yours are) rather than learned and practiced that they are much more effective, leaving wannabe students and NLP practitioners just the bearers af a wealth of useless information that have spent a lot of money on becoming such beings.
I’m totally with Derren on this one. As a gay guy who was brought up in a reactionary smalltown christian environment the sheer pressure to think “It’s just a phase”, “You’ll grow out of it”, “It’s the devil trying to trick you”, “If you tell anyone round here what you really are you’ll be a social pariah” results in what can be years of internalised homophobia.
In my case it took me a decade in the closet from my first incling of being gay to admitting that I ‘couldn’t even think straight’ as the saying goes. If gayness was a supposed ‘lifestyle choice’ you could turn on and off like a tap, why would anyone put themselves through denial? Denial is NOT a fun place to be.
In the end I had to choose, and I chose to ditch religion and accept myself as gay, for the sake of my sanity.
The hypocracy I see in my own family (many ‘born again’ christians) is sickening. They actually will shake their heads, sigh and pray, for the ‘gay evil sinners’. They will actually look at me with pity if i attempt to defend individuality and understanding. I have had to put up with 35 years of 2-faced ignorant judgemental hypocracy from these so called ‘children of Christ’, and their evil grows by the year. Goodness and love come from the heart, not from blinkered indoctrination.
@seline just be yourself, the best version. You don’t have to follow every crush just acknowledge it to yourself quietly as part of you. Don’t feel you have to label yourself or tick the facebook box to say gay bi straight. Privacy is protective. My cousin thought she was gay at 13 now she’s 16 and with a boy. Either is ok . More important not to worry or get involved with bad people . Lots of love xxxxx
Bigot: Being gay is blah blah blah bitty blah…
Us: Are these people consenting adults?
Bigot: Yes…
Us: Are either of them you?
Bigot: No…
Us: F**k away off then!
This answer does not a happy bigot make.
Not as elegant as Derren’s but quite satisfying none the less.
I’m also Irish catholic (actually in a choir) but as far a s I can tell Jeebus didn’t have a problem with people loving each other.
He was quite cool and groovy.
Kinda like Derren..
Eventually – it might take a long time, but eventually – the church will ditch the whole idea about homosexuality being wrong. It’s obvious when more and more Christians are deciding that being gay doesn’t go against their faith. There’s a Catholic family I’m friendly with (yeah, Catholics and Pagans getting along, I know! 😉 ) and they were convinced that homosexuality was a sin, until two of their sons (they’ve got ten,) came out as gay. They admit now that they really didn’t understand what ‘being gay’ meant at all.
It’s this simple – If someone doesn’t like homosexuality, then don’t have sex with someone of the same gender! How hard is that to understand..??
To be so over-concerned with the sexual orientation of SOMEONE ELSE (to the point where she feels the need to ‘cure’ them) would indicate more about HER, than it ever would about the ‘someone else’ she’s ‘attempting to ‘cure’.
It’s OK to be gay, if your GAY ! …… Simple !
HomoPHOBIA, like ALL PHOBIAS, is a psychological disorder, and is literally “The irrational fear of homosexuality (suppressed within one’s self!) ” as a result of denying it. (it is NOT the fear of homosexuals – that is simply a displacement of it) The water in that long river in Egypt is not the only thing to be in ‘de nile’ !
Bob
I seem to hear stuff like this all the time being a citizen of the US(especially Utah) and its always disturbing. Why do the deeply religious always feel the need to make everyone just like them? I’m a sinner and a heathen just cause I don’t live my life the exact same way they do… apparently.
in other news, doesn’t DB have such an interesting way to word things? He really flows on paper.
Oh for goodness sake, I can’t believe that we are living in the 21st century and some people still have difficulty in moving on. Please just live and let live (as long as it is legal and consentual) what difference does it make whether you are gay or straight. People who continue to ‘poke their noses’ into other peoples private lives obviously have far too much time on their hands. It doesn’t matter what other people think , you are what you are, and if you’re not happy with that then it’s up to you to change it, no one else can do that for you, and don’t have the right to try.
I had spent 17 years going through these sorts of therapies designed to straighten me out. Hair can be straightened. Gays? Not so much.
Strangely I found leaders of these groups–most often people also desperately trying to “fix” themselves so they could adhere to church teaching & the demands of society & family–to be “confusedly well-meaning.” Once I received treatment from a kindly ex-gay counselor in Kidderminster, UK. I found him to be so very kind & his ministry to be so very damaging. The sugar sweet masked the poison, the very poison he also ingested on a regular basis.
As long as the message gets promoted in obvious and subtle ways that anything other than gender-normative heterosexuality is inferior, you will have people looking for a cure & others who will provide one.
hh: Haha, yeah. Reminds me of that old bit of prose…
“First they came for the foreigners. I said nothing, because I am not foreign. Then they came for the gays. I said nothing, because I am not gay. Then they came for the disabled. I said nothing, because I am not disabled. And when they finally came for me, nobody was left to say anything.”
Rev . Bob Poandl “sexual misconduct” early 90’s West Virginia. 10 year old boy. (@Deep Thought website wed 5th May 2010)