Fry & Hitchens vs The Catholic Church – The Intelligence Squared Debate
You might remember we posted an article about this debate, hosted by Intelligence Squared, a little while back. Now here’s the debate in full, for your audiovisual edification:
(with our own Derren Brown sat in the audience too)
I was up on the left. It was a rout. And a riot [laughwise].
All very well, but when are the luvies going to have a similar debate on Islam. To be fair Hitchens has done so, and has moved to the “right”, but Fry is probably too much a luvvie.
And when are Catholic secularists going to reply with “Anglo-Saxon dissenting protestantism – the nuttiest inhuman form of Christianity the world has ever seen”?
Questions. Questions. Questions. Possibly every “secular” movement should be like this – ignore the major religions that are dangerous, and revert to nationalistic attacks on the long term hated minorities.
Where’s the rest of it?? No Stephen Fry?!!
I think Hitchens always forgets that the goal of Christians, these 100s of millions or billions of people who get together on a weekly basis and read the same book, over and over, is fine.
And very, very few of them take this up for a lark. Most of them are taught this garbage by their parents at a young age, and they were taught by _their_ parents at a young age, and even today it is still sometimes a bar to marriage.
Wonderful, wonderful. More of this please.
Hitchens and Fry make an awesome team.
Gooood!! very well spoken, that just warms my heart.
I just sat through all this on YT and it was absolutely fascinating. Stephen Fry is just the best, isn’t he??
LC x
thats some hard hitting stuff.Stephen Fry hit the nail on the head if you ask me!
Stephen Fry, what a legend. 🙂 I watched the whole thing, incredibly interesting. I would have loved to have been there.
Top Marks! been wanting to watchie this
Is everyone who comments on DB’s blog a militant atheist?! Talk about a broad base of opinion…..
this is brilliant! i love the way Christopher Hitchens just pokes the bees nest! amazing!
still watching all the parts!
cheers for the link!
I SO want to rush onstage and hug Stephen.
This is apparently a heavily edited version. I can’t wait to see the whole thing.
Fantastic, despite the fact that I am biased anyway, I certainly thought the better arguements came from Fry and Hitchens. Not surprising!
Both sides give fascinating arguments! Lovin this debate!
Stephen Fry wins.
I suspect he would also win the debate if he decided to take the other side too 🙂
George, are you a militant christian?
Hitchens is genius and frighteningly eloquent, as is Fry. I recommend many of Hitchens’ appearances on youtube.
It’s always hartening to see common sense and good arguement win out but I do question how representative that audience is of general opinion.
Thank you for tweeting the link.
The outcome at the end left me feeling gleeful, delighted and relieved. I stopped believing in any religion when I turned 16yrs and am over the moon that there is now a voice for people like me who no longer have to stay quiet. About bloody time is all I can say!
For those of you who were confused like I was, you can find the entire debate on youtube 😀
George
Freethinkers and rationalists tend to attract others of the same mind.
As has also been implied in the above comments, some of us are attracted to those that have made us feel as though we no longer have to hide our feelings on these matters. Those who proclaim their skepticism as if (gasp) it is nothing to be ashamed of.
Of course, there are always the narrow minded and shallow types who view our blatant and purposeful refusal to feel shame for our rational thought as “militant”, but it’s safe to ignore them as we would the ravings of any simple child. They can’t help their condition. We simply try to keep them from hurting themselves or others.
Any other questions dear?
Saw this programme for the first time, a little way into it ,and was most impressed.
Is the audience informed about principles of voting on a debate? Do they vote on the better arguments rather than giving their own opinions on the subject?
It was like a breath of fresh air to hear controversial opinions voiced openly and unequivocally on air.
I am already looking forward to the next debate, hoping they are all as good as this.
Did we actually get a counterpoint from George or not?
I don’t actually understand what a militant athiest is. If he means they are armed with the capacity for clear rational thought then I’m guilty as charged.
Otherwise I do wish he’d choose to stop using the interweb as he is obviously struggling with it.
If it were possible for a vagina to suffer from a stroke then I could easily explain the intellectual void that is ann widdecombe. What a total abstract grip on reality this turnip of a human has. Like a vagina thats suffered from a stroke she sits there slack mouthed with nothing to suggest that its alive other than the odd fart and a dribble of piss now and then. Ridiculous that this woman is ever given air time – in fact air.
on the subject on the ten commadments, in response to anne widicombe’s response to the ten commandments, they cannot possibly be a blueprint when they are clearly called “commandments” i.e. to command not to suggest it is a commanding, secondly there are not ten commandments if you re-read the bible theres things like “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live”, the like of derren would have been burned a long time ago for his extraordinary expertise but his only “sin” is enlightenment and betterment through his own understanding of the universe and the world in which he lives and processes of us very basic mammals in order to manipulate the causes to bring about a desired effect,
in its enlightened age we can all agree a democracy is fair and equal, yet catholics do not understand somehow that god is a dictator.
– Are you calling Derren a witch? – Phillis
ahh,religion – just what I need on a monday ‘morning’ to make me feel better about this insane world we live in. From the moment of our birth we are denied the right to be what we are – ANIMALS. It is forbidden for me to be naked in public (don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to be – it’s fucking freezing where I am) – have you ever seen those ‘tea party chimps’ who are dressed in ‘human’ clothes? It just looks abnormal doesn’t it? – Well in reality that is how we look.
We live abnormal lives, forbidden to do all those things that are really natural – killing,stealing,lying,committing adultery etc. And honour my parents? – if you knew what they had done to me, why the fuck should I?Even non believers believe this shit, from generations of brainwashing – we are born in captivity, freedom is an illusion.
I feel better now, thanks – end of rant
Whilst I’ve no idea if everyone here is a “Militant Atheist”, I’m fairly sure most visitors to this site are people who are seeking to expand their mind and develop their understand of the world rather than just taking an off-pat version of it “on faith”.
That would, I suspect, lead to a lack of people who’d profess any allegiance to any of the world’s religions – if not, in fact, turn them into people who actively question why others are so closed-minded and wish to continue their faith in the face of evidence to the contrary.
Militancy in this is probably a result of nothing more than frustration – possibly allied with just a touch of pity.
Anne Widdecombe makes my penis go back up into my body.
Sam Lowry
Silly boy. Haven’t you learned anything on the interwebs?
A militant atheist is someone who admits that he/she is an atheist.
Horribly rude of them, really. The nerve.
Of course, in this thread all it took to be called a militant atheist was showing appreciation for a good debate performance. I suppose the definition is changing again.
KB
Yoiks, I feel ashamed for not realising the broad range of convenient flexibilty that ‘those of faith’ use in the definition of people who openly appreciate debate.
Glad you pointed that out as I almost started subscribing to Guns & Ammo just so I could fit in round here.
Phew ! dodged a bullet there.
Stephen Fry was fantastic, what`s really amazing is in the year 2009 we are actually giving time to people who belive in a god.
no im not calling derren a witch, to do so without proof would be crazy, irresponsible and would show a very narrow veiled off view of the world. The point im merely making is that the christian doctrine and brainwashing would make those extremeists see derren as a witch, someone who knows more than they do, who understands the world a little bit better and clearer.
Merely an observation based on the world ive seen, for example there are still people in kenya being burned as witches, reported around the 21st of may 2008, these are small examples of how extreme religious faith is harming our culture and our innate ability to grow and learn.
So in short no im not calling derren a witch, hes merely a product of the enlightenment, but there are a slew of people im sure who would happily call him a witch.
– oh, well he is one – Phillis 😉
Hated minorities, Eugene? It’s the largest religion in the world.
Watched the whole thing last night
Stephen Fry should be given a knighthood! His incredible argument completely smashed Ann Widdecombe’s argument (which was very good, I must say.) And, like nealkenny said earlier, he always manages to hit the nail on the head. This just makes me wish even more that I could have been there. (Although they’d probably have to gag me half way through, to stop me from screaming “Go, Stephen!!!” from the balcony.)
Thanks for posting this, it’s brilliant! 😀
in response to phillis’ reply
oh ok then!!
I watched the entire thing the other night.
The premise is rediculous. ” The Catholic Church is a force of good in the world”
Which makes the entire show rediculous. Tenured by wit and theatrics the opposition to this question are clearly going to win the debate even before hearing anything the dram and boring Clergy and the immediately auditorily offensive MP who voice is literally a kin to nails against a black board have to say.
The Catholic Church is made up of people. So are people a force for good in the world?
Hitchens would probably win this debate against people if it were brought up. Does that make this whole show moot?
The motion is an opinion. So I guess its subject to opinion. How much money does Hitchens give to Charity? Is Hitchens or Fry a force of good in the world? Lets take a poll shall we? Rediculous!
Excellent debate. I read somewhere the TV version is very short be interesting to see an unedited version.
The only negative I found from it is that catholicity is a pretty easy target. Everyone knows its a fairy story. Also the question never really got answered to summarise the show; does anti gay, anti condom and historical atrocities out way the the charitable efforts that the current church does. If yes vote church bad if no vote church good. I wish there would be more of these kinds of debates on other religions but I suppose catholicity is what most people in this country know best. The best thing about the debate was Steven Fry completely crushed the opposition with his personal viewpoint as a homosexual.
As for the comment on witches its fascinating and is an example of how bad doctrine can be as shown by the child killings in Africa. Its actually a mistranslation albeit deliberate. The direct translation of “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live†is actually thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live. People who poison water sources in places where there are only few water sources could wipe out a whole village and would be considered very bad. It was changed I think by a king to help to wipe out pagan religions. Highlights how ridiculous and flexible religion is. Although I agreed Derren would almost certainly have been burned at the stake. Either that or be walking around as Jesus 😉